01-01-2003 10:40									#31
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For a war I think the Mongol Horde probably takes the cake. From 1211-1241 Gengis Khan and his son with their comparatively small army took over China, the Turks, Russia and much of eastern Europe, all having armies more numerous and more advanced than their attackers.

	01-01-2003 10:44									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Alex Woehr For a war I think the Mongol Horde probably takes the cake. From 1211-1241 Gengis Khan and his son with their comparatively small army took over China, the Turks, Russia and much of eastern Europe, all having armies more numerous and more advanced than their attackers.

I think you have a top ten there but you can in no way say that the Mongol army was backward. Gengis developed a military that was eons ahead of its time.

	01-01-2003 10:45									#33
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And they would have gotten into Europe but the Muslims stopped them. Then Kublai Khan died and his western army had to return back home before they had a chance to counterattack and breakthrough. This was right after Baghdad got sacked.

	01-01-2003 11:09									#34
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Considering Israel outnumbered its enemies, had more weapons, a unified command structure, it was rather surprising they didn't take the whole thing.

Nonesense. Israel was able to muster up about 45k troops, and of that, only 15,000 went into field combat while the other 30,000 were defending local positions. The arabs states combined had armies totaling 80,000.

The US had embargoed the whole region, while Britain had embargoed Israel, while supplying the Arab states. Israel had to make do with less than 20,000 light arms that had been smuggled in. Israel had no tanks, no artillery, and 11 obsolete planes. They finally managed to procure weapons from, ironically, checkoslovakia a months after the fighting had started. The arab armies, in contrast, were very well armed.

As for command structure, while the arabs have never been ones to model one's command structure after, there was numerous infighting, suspicion and dissent between the Jewish groups which climaxed when, after the Irgun refused to join the IDF, Ben Gurion attacked an Irgun ship that bringing in arms - resulting in a number of deaths. Add to that vulnerable communication lines and that the arab forces had an overwhelming geographical advantage.

And for an army that was so much larger, better armed and more unified, why did the Israelis have such a high number of casualties?

quote: US state department records from before the war predict a total Israeli victory.

Source?

	01-01-2003 12:01									#35
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The least amazing military victory I can think of would be Antietam, where the larger force, with a copy of the plans of the other side, managed to accomplish a less than stunning victory.

	01-01-2003 12:05									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker No Blitzkrieg over the Maginot Line?

Germany's humiliation of France during WWII definitely has to rank as a very amazing victory. I'd also add on Kemal Ataturk against the allies during the Turkish War of Independence, where against all odds he managed to come back from a defeat during a world war and preserve Turkey.

	01-01-2003 13:00									#37
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Wasn't the most amazing victory Alexander the Great's conquest of Persia, especially the battle where he destroyed the Persian army despite attacking across a river and being massively outnumbered. I believe it was the most lopsided victory in history until the Gulf War.

Caesar at Alesia was outnumbered 6-1, completely surrounded and attacked from all directions at once. The fight was close. Caesar won only by brilliant maneuvers in the nick of time.

	01-01-2003 13:02									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Germany's humiliation of France during WWII definitely has to rank as a very amazing victory. I'd also add on Kemal Ataturk against the allies during the Turkish War of Independence, where against all odds he managed to come back from a defeat during a world war and preserve Turkey.

Good call BD, that's one that has long been forgotten but was EXTREMELY humiliating for the allies.

	01-01-2003 13:03									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Caesar at Alesia was outnumbered 6-1, completely surrounded and attacked from all directions at once. The fight was close. Caesar won only by brilliant maneuvers in the nick of time.

This was during the conquest of Gaul, correct? Didn't the Romans consider Gaul to be unconquerable at one point?

	01-01-2003 13:09									#40
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I'd say Gulf war was amazing. Look what they did, in just 100 hours.

	01-01-2003 13:30									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker This was during the conquest of Gaul, correct? Didn't the Romans consider Gaul to be unconquerable at one point?

In fact, the Gauls conquered Rome a few centuries before.

After Ceasar had been in Gaul for nearly ten years, the Gauls finally got their act together and united under one leader, Vercingetorix. They had significant early successes. But Caesar recovered and forced Vercingetorix to take a defensive stand at Alesia. Ceasar built fortifications around Alesia. When Vercingetorix sent for reinforcements. Caesar built defensive works in the other direction as well, facing out. When the Gauls attacked, they attacked from Alesia and from outside Alesia at the same time.

At one point in the line, the Romans were being overwhelmed. But Ceasar rushed reinforcements to the weakened area. The battle was, as I said, extremely close.

In the words of Maximus, aka, Russel Crowe, Roman Victor!

	01-01-2003 15:07									#42
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Israel victory in Sept. 1973

	01-01-2003 17:01									#43
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Austerlitz, it was brilliant, Napoleon made is enemies do what he wanted.

	01-01-2003 18:49									#44
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As the Barmy Army keeps reminding Australia at the cricket here: "Saturday's for rugby: 32-31 "

Excellent

	01-01-2003 19:20									#45
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The Pirates' victory over the Yankees in 1960 World Series, off of Mazeroski's (and Hal Smith's) home runs.

Oh, wait, you mean military victories. In that case:

-- The Mongols conquering Russia in the winter of 1237-38. To my knowledge, it's the only winter campaign against Russia that's been remotely successful.

-- I'll second Ned's nomination of Alesia. (Didn't know he was outnumbered by that much.)

	01-01-2003 19:42									#46
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Napoleon at Austerlitz
Lee at Chancellorsville
Japan at Pearl Harbor
British at Rourke's Drift

Battle of Britain
Battle of Dien Bien Phu

	01-01-2003 19:43									#47
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The battle of Feishui, where 80,000 troops of Eastern Jin defeated an enemy of 1,000,000 troops.

	01-01-2003 20:59									#48
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I think Israeli "independence" war supporters are overestimating the maount of support given to the small arab force by surrounding countries... Most of them supplied meagre arms, but did little else. I personally think 73 and even 67 were more impressive victories.

Anyway, as for the main topic: In sweden we're always taught it's the battle of Narva.

	02-01-2003 07:35									#49
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WWII has too many possible candidates, and not that I particularily know about Soviet victories, but Operation Bagration 1944 so utterly whipped the German Army (esp. Army Group Center) that it practically left the gates open for their final invasion of Germany in 1945.

	02-01-2003 07:47									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Nonesense.

Not gonna argue with you here because I don't want to turn this into an ME thread.

Simple facts: at no point did the Arabs ever outnumber the Israelis in Palestine, and by the end of the fighting, the Israelis outnumbers Arab forces in Palestine massively. Despite the arms embargo from the West, the Israelis got quite a bit of arms from the Soviet block, which was far more modern. At the begining it was a bit more iffy, since the Israelis only outnumbered the Arabs 25,000 to 23,000 and didn't have a lot of equipment. However, since they had a non-agression pact with the Jordanians (which they violated), they could concentrate their forces elsewhere.

That's my last word on this in this thread. I've writeen and rewritten this too many damn times in the alst two years to do it again for your personal benefit.

	02-01-2003 08:08									#51
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The Ottomans loosing the siege of Vienna, those Austrians were freaking lucky, and was the begining of the end of Ottoman dominance in eastern Europe. After than goofup the turks would never be as powerful again.

	02-01-2003 08:11									#52
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Of course the Austrians benifeted from the timely arrival of the entire Polish Army.

	02-01-2003 08:27									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Odin The Ottomans loosing the siege of Vienna, those Austrians were freaking lucky, and was the begining of the end of Ottoman dominance in eastern Europe. After than goofup the turks would never be as powerful again.

The loss at the seige of Vienna was totally Kara Mustafa's fault. He neglected to fortify his camp and he refused to storm Vienna. If the city fell by seige, then all inside belonged to him, but if they stormed it, then the soldiers got to loot the city. Frankly, if he'd bothered to move to oppose the Germans and Poles, he could have held on, and then if they'd dug trenches around their camp (the size of the camp was bigger than the city of Vienna), put up some barricades, and had repositioned their troops and artillery to face the threat, things might have been very, very different.

	02-01-2003 08:54									#54
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quote: Simple facts: at no point did the Arabs ever outnumber the Israelis in Palestine, and by the end of the fighting, the Israelis outnumbers Arab forces in Palestine massively.

Source? (for that matter, you didn't cite your source of American documents, either, so I don't seriously expect a source)

quote: Despite the arms embargo from the West, the Israelis got quite a bit of arms from the Soviet block, which was far more modern.

Months after the fighting began. Before then, the Arab armies had armor, artillary and an air force where Israel had none by May 1948. ""the heaviest equipment of any consequence in the Israeli Forces was the 3-inch mortar, of which there were 195, while the "artillery" units had acquired some Hispano-Suiza 20 mm guns and some French 65mm howitzers without sights dating from the beginning of the century. A few Messerschmitt aircraft had been acquired, but were still abroad." _The Arab-Israeli Wars_

quote: At the begining it was a bit more iffy, since the Israelis only outnumbered the Arabs 25,000 to 23,000 and didn't have a lot of equipment.

Again, source? They had armor, artillary and an air force, with 30,000+ well equipped troops and an additional 50,000+ palestinian irregulars in may of 1948. Egypt, Iraq and Syria had air forces, egypt and Syria had tanks, Jordan, Lebenon and Iraq had armored cars, and all had modern artillery.

quote: However, since they had a non-agression pact with the Jordanians (which they violated), they could concentrate their forces elsewhere.

King abbdullah was put as commander in chief of both the invading Arab Legion, but also the forces already within palestine (indeed, the other arab legions suspected that he wanted to take over as much land as he could - and since he annexed the west bank, it appears to be with some merit.). And on May 14th, after several abortive attacks, they captured an Israeli Power station in Neharayim.

quote: That's my last word on this in this thread. I've writeen and rewritten this too many damn times

You've rewritten it enough times so that it has very little simmilarity with history.

	02-01-2003 10:10									#55
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It's in poor taste to demand sources unless you supply them yourself. Besides, this isn't a Middle East thread.

I'd go with the First Crusade's capture of Jerusalem as the most amazing victory ever. A poorly organized rabble of hungry and thirsty soldiers and camp followers from Western Europe managed to take a heavily fortified Eastern city after a lucky shipment of timber for building siege engines arrived. Not astonishing in the military sense, but certainly amazing in terms of the background.

	02-01-2003 10:21									#56
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Mongols conquering China

Lepanto?
Tours?

most amazing military defeat would probably be the 2nd Punic War

	02-01-2003 10:50									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Felch X It's in poor taste to demand sources unless you supply them yourself.

I did cite a source.

	02-01-2003 11:08									#58
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As far as the greatest victories as far as making the enemy do exactly what they wanted them to do and then thoroughly crushing them afterwards, my vote goes to the Germans in 1940 against France, and Napoleon at Austerlitz in 1805. Just beautifully planned and tactically enacted battles that met with spactacular success.

	02-01-2003 11:10									#59
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I think that better than either of those would have to be Hannibal's victory at Cannae. He was outnumbered more than two to one, on pen ground, facing some of the best soldiers in the world, and he managed to annihilate them completely.

	02-01-2003 17:08									#60
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Miracle on Ice 1980, US over USSR for the Gold in men's Olympic Hockey.