24-01-2001 23:12									#1
	Great battles that changed history Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

This is another highly subjective topic, but lets hear your top seven(always seven, because that's the number of civs). Since I'm starting this I'll put mine first, in order of there being fought:

• Salamis 480 BC: Themistocles' trick ends Xerxes' dream of world conquest.
• Gaugamela 331 BC: Alexander's greatest victory gives him a world empire, and leaves Darius' and Persia's dreams of empire forever dead.
• Zama 202 BC: Scipio Africanus shatters the army of Hannibal, and teaches Rome the lesson of conquest.
• Ain Jalut 1260 AD: One that most people don't know about. Baybars and his Mamluks become the only power to defeat a mongol army, putting a stop to their westward expansion forever.
• Trafalgar 1805 AD: Nelson's victory over the Franc-spanish fleet of Villeneuve ends any hope of Napoleon ever defeating Britian, and thus of ever dominating the world.
• The Kaiser's battle 1918 AD: Imperial Germany comes withen a wisker of breaking the allies, and thus winning the first world war.
• Kursk 1943 AD: Hitler's last great offensive in Russia ends in disaster as Stalin knows when and were the Nazis will strike.

	25-01-2001 01:36									#2
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Vittorio Veneto, 1918: Austro-hungarians were crushed, and Italians were able to seriously menace Bavarian lands... so that's another reason why Germany surrended to allies. And people don't know really much about this historical event.

A quote:
The "schwerpunkt" was keeped a secret by Diaz, the Italian Army's Chief. When he took on the map to show it to others officers, he didn't find it, so he asked in napolitan dialect to his officer, Lieautenant Nievo ( the famous writer ): "'Nne, Nievo, andų 'ssta 'sto ***** 'e Vittori' e' Veneto?"...

	25-01-2001 03:08									#4
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May 7 Spain-o-centric picks:

(in chronological order)

1. Guadalete or La Janda (711). The battle that allowed the Moors to enter Iberia. Some historians doubt that this battle really took place.

2. Las Navas de Tolosa (1212). The Christian kingdoms of Spain unite to defeat the infidel. This battle opened the roads to the richest cities of Al-Andalus.

3. Aljubarrota (1385). The battle that secured Portuguese independence from Castile. Still today, the main reason for the existence of two separate states within the Iberian peninsula.

4. Lepanto (1571). The naval battle that ended Turkish threats on the Mediterranean sea.

5. Rocroi (1643). The battle that... snif... put an end to 150 years of Spanish supremacy on the battlefield.

6. Trafalgar (1805) or this is what happens when you let the French command...

7. Bailen (1808) First time a Napoleonic army was defeated in a pitched battle.
[This message has been edited by Jay Bee (edited January 25, 2001).]

	25-01-2001 03:51									#6
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Hey guys? I'd hate to be a jerk, but isn't this a bit off topic?

	25-01-2001 06:38									#8
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i think the Battle of San Jacinto is very important. they texans beat the mexicans there, and were declared independent. this led to the Mexican War thing where the United States got all the western land. This helped america become a superpower, i think. (i failed history so dont hurt me too bad)

	25-01-2001 15:41									#11
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I would say the Battle of the Somme is of immense importance in showing the horror of mechanised war, revolutionising social relations, fermenting political change and, through the Great War in total, bringing female equality closer.

	25-01-2001 18:20									#12
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Jay Bee

Did you consider for inclusion La Armade Grande of 1588?

	25-01-2001 19:26									#13
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All good ones so far. A few more biggies:

1) Battle of Saratoga. A sorely needed win for the American Rebels. Gave Franklin the edge he needed to convince France to help the American upstarts. England still grew to dominance in the 19th century but she may have become invincible if she was also able to control most of the vast American continent.

2) Battle of Britain. Permanently stalls Hitler's westward expansion. Forces him to fight a two-front war and allows America, Britain and Canada the time to build up a massive invasion army.

3) Agincourt. Lords and Knights vs mere peasants with longbows. The end of the unbeatable man in armor.

4) Monitor vs Merrimac. Suddenly, every naval vessel in the entire world became obsolete. Started great nations down the path that eventually led to huge battleships.

5) Battle of Midway. The end of the battleship era. A much larger Japanese fleet is defeated almost soley by air power.

6) Desert Storm. Air power as a demoralizing force. Green volunteers with high tech defeat 8+ year veteran elite forces.

	25-01-2001 21:35									#16
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I’m not defending the English, just pointing out an important distinction, a distinction that thousands gave their lives to maintain.

My advice would be that, if in doubt, say British (most things of international importance happened after the Union of the Crowns) and be prepared to be gently informed that it was either an English atrocity or a Scottish achievement if you got it wrong, rather than inappropriately dishing everything onto the English as it means we Scots are being forgotten in favour of our larger neighbour, not something we like.

	26-01-2001 00:02									#18
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The Somme was indeed awful but Verdun is acknowledged as the most bloody of all the first world war battles, 770,000 casualties, I think.

I stand to be corrected but I believe that it is said in France to be a part of the reason that there was no great enthusiasm for the second world war there because of the effect the senseless slaughter at Verdun had on the psyche of the nation.

Some of the early WW1 battles gain yet greater poignancy in the UK because the men who fought were volunteers. The men from many of the northern towns all joined up together and went into the same regiment. They then all went into battle together and such was the carnage in the early trench warfare battles that a number of towns lost all but a handful of its young men on a single day.

Hard to imagine being in Huddersfield or Warrington on the day when telegrams announcing the death of so many were all arriving at once.

I saw a last remnant of the consequence of the carnage in my early years in practice in Canterbury. I noticed that I had quite a few elderly female clients all of whom were genteel, in slightly straitened circumstances, and all of whom were spinsters.

In 1918 it was impossible, if you came from a certain class, to marry outside that class. But the casualty rate among young subalterns - who had to lead their men over the top - was pretty well 100%. So the girls of an entire generation lost their chance of a socially acceptable marriage.

	26-01-2001 00:40									#19
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For East Street Trader: When speaking about Verdun, it is important to point out that the battle lasted for ten months, but yes, it was the most costly. Your causality total is actually on the low side, but such number crunching is irrelevant. Your point about how poignant it is that the heavest losses were among the volunteers is well taken. This whole war was pointless. We know that the Austrians started it to try to unite their fading empire(Conrad's sickening quote comes to mind: Austria must wage war for political reasons), but what did Imperial Germany hope to gain? They must have understood that their overseas colonies would be lost, and that Britain would not stand aside if the neutrality of Belgium was violated. Hoping for a repeat of the Franco-Prussian war was unrealistic. All the powers seem to have been swept up in a mania of nationalism. This was the most tragic war ever fought, and the women you mention were a tangible example of it.
[This message has been edited by cpoulos (edited January 25, 2001).]

	26-01-2001 01:32									#21
	Tired of ads?

Let's here some others.
[This message has been edited by cpoulos (edited January 25, 2001).]

	26-01-2001 03:06									#23
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Ah, stupid multiple post

[This message has been edited by BeBro (edited January 25, 2001).]

	26-01-2001 03:08									#24
	Suffering from ads?

[This message has been edited by BeBro (edited January 25, 2001).]

	26-01-2001 03:09									#25
	Increase Your PM Length

[This message has been edited by BeBro (edited January 25, 2001).]

	26-01-2001 03:12									#26
	Inflate your Upload Space

490BC, Marathon: Athenīs Phalanx shows the superiority of the heavy armoured Hoplites against the Persians

31BC, Actium: Octavianīs admiral Agrippa destroys the fleets of Kleopatra and M.Antonius, and secures the power for caesarīs successor

732AD, Karl Martellīs victory against the Arabs at Tours and Portiers saves the Christian Europe

1789, Storm on the Bastille (ok, this was no real battle )

And Iīm surprised that nobody has mentioned Stalingrad here...


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Civ2000