02-01-2003 02:13									#1
	Apolytonian Abolitionist Front Increase Your PM Length

The Senate of Apolytonia just passed a bill endorsing a government policy of perpetual slavery! The bill does not have a clear majority, however, and it is my belief that with more organized opposition, action can be taken to reverse this perverse decision! Speak your support here, and the President, seeing our strength, may decide to veto this atrocity!

	02-01-2003 02:23									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I fully support Freedom

	02-01-2003 08:57									#3
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Give me 3 Good Reasons why we should abolish slavery and i may change my atitude towards the issue.

	02-01-2003 09:08									#4
	Put an end to popups!

This comming from someone foolish enough to lampoon his posts with the SMAC UN faction leaderhead. Everybody knows that University is the way to go. Love da patch!

	02-01-2003 09:26									#5
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1- Slavery is morally wrong (seriously! )
2- In RL, slavery is economically silly (not very productive), and in our game, they produce less than a free worker (a half, to be exact)
3- we are the most powerful civ of the game. We can spend a few lytons.

	02-01-2003 09:33									#6
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I demand that the diligent workers formerly dedicated to improving the lands of her late highness, Joan of Arc, be freed! They committed no crimes against Apolyton, yet they have been working as slaves for centuries! Let them return to their former lands of Old France to reunite with relatives and loved ones. Also consider that their incorporation into the cities will foster much needed growth and production to the cities that the Apolyton forces to savagely sacked.

Free the slaves! (Especially French ones) !

	02-01-2003 10:30									#7
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Arnelos is DIA is it not?

Does the DIA have a stance?

Can Parties become relevant?


Mss

	02-01-2003 21:14									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

where will we put them after they are freed? in our city's which are purly apolitonian, or citys were there own race exist?

	02-01-2003 22:00									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

BURN THE HERETICS! THE SLAVES WERE MADE TO SERVE US!

	02-01-2003 22:45									#10
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IAM CONVINCED!!! FREE THE SLAVES!!!!! Liberty for all!!!
Slavery is evil weather it be on the fields and plains of the our world or on the streams of data that is apolyton!
Will the cruelty ever stop! Not until the abolitionist rise up and take control of this country region by region , square by square
and free the slaves in the regions where they work hard without pay but only with pain. The beatings must stop! What does our president have to say about this matter. Is he a freedom fighter or a murderer?!


I used to think that treating slaves humainly was posible. But from as any man can see this cant be done.

skywalker "BURN THE HERETICS! THE SLAVES WERE MADE TO SERVE US!"
Hot_Enamel "Think of the Slave Handlers ?And the Whip Makers? Keep the slaves as free labour."

SO freedom must be achived by any means nescicary!


(wouldnt it be intersting if could actually have a civil war in the game :lol

	02-01-2003 23:17									#11
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Oh, so your plotting a revolution are you ?

	02-01-2003 23:24									#12
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Maybe



use the force skywalker , see the truth , slavery is wrong you know it to be true. wise i am , see the future you must, understand someday, u will.

Clouds everyting, the ming side does, soon see the truth will you!

	03-01-2003 00:48									#13
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Arnelos is DIA. The DIA doesn't have an official stance that I'm aware of; however, many members, being hippy and all, oppose slavery...

Parties can always become relevant.

	03-01-2003 01:18									#14
	Remove this text

As a proud member of the DIA, I strongly oppose the bill which passed. In there, I explained lengthy why integrating slaves first will be very useful to our economy, and why integrating nationals first would hurt our economy, and partly deprive us of the demographic boom we need.

Also, the bill completely lacks of flexibility. As long as there is ANY national worker out in the fields, it will be IMPOSSIBLE to integrate any slave, regardless of the situation.

I'm sorry to all those who oppose slavery for moral reasons, because I only speak about economic rationale, but I want to prove integrating slaves first is economically rational

	03-01-2003 02:47									#15
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No, spiffor, you proved that integrating slaves in economically rational. That's true. What is not true is that integrating them FIRST is rational.

	03-01-2003 03:30									#16
	Got spare money?

hi ,

fighting for freedom , dying for liberty



free the oppressed

have a nice day

Last edited by panag on 03-01-2003 at 10:35

	03-01-2003 03:36									#17
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Aplause from the crowds..... a liberation army??? or just a protest?

Lets hear it for panag!

Lets Hear it for freedom!

	03-01-2003 04:20									#18
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What was the ruling about abstentions and everything? Do they count for the two-thirds.

Also, YES actually won by two votes. I have to vote by posting because it doesn't let me vote.

I just realized that, if abstains are ignored... the bill actually can't be vetoed!

19 yes. 17 no. 19/(19+17) = 19/26 = 73% > 2/3!

	03-01-2003 05:04									#19
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker What was the ruling about abstentions and everything? Do they count for the two-thirds.

Abstentions are thrown out for all purposes except meeting quorum.

quote: Also, YES actually won by two votes. I have to vote by posting because it doesn't let me vote. I just realized that, if abstains are ignored... the bill actually can't be vetoed! 19 yes. 17 no. 19/(19+17) = 19/26 = 73% > 2/3!

Err... 19+17=36.

19/36= ~53%

	03-01-2003 05:41									#20
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The only reason these foreign workers can be considered slaves is because they are "forced" to work for us and have no other choice. In the EXACT same way, our own workers who came from the cities and fields of our nation are slaves as well then. Should they not be freed as well? If not, now you are placing the value of a foreign citizen over the value of one of our own citizens.

Also, on the hypocrisy front (role playing or not), we fully support granting freedom to our "slaves" yet no one has uttered any sort of dissent that our SMC just killed thousands of innocent german civilians in a city for no good reason? I am not understanding this.

It's not okay to "enslave" our past/present enemies innocent civilian populace, but it is perfectly okay to burn them alive instead?

Perhaps these abolitionist organizations should look at a bigger picture before claiming they are morally and ethically righteous.

	03-01-2003 06:11									#21
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WhiteBandit, earlier today I was myself considering these very points. I thought about the current moral tests our nation is currently facing, and failing. Indeed, if I was not such a strong supporter of the DIA, I would've already started a party based on moral issues.

As it is, I think I am going to create an umbrella non-party organization on moral issues, including war, slavery, and trout-slapping.

I think it has been clarified that the vote passed by less than 2\3rds. Even if the President fails to veto, a modified version of the bill will be introduced by this organization, bringing about moderate change directed at the goal of emancipation while making economic sense.

	03-01-2003 06:31									#22
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit The only reason these foreign workers can be considered slaves is because they are "forced" to work for us and have no other choice. In the EXACT same way, our own workers who came from the cities and fields of our nation are slaves as well then. Should they not be freed as well? If not, now you are placing the value of a foreign citizen over the value of one of our own citizens. Also, on the hypocrisy front (role playing or not), we fully support granting freedom to our "slaves" yet no one has uttered any sort of dissent that our SMC just killed thousands of innocent german civilians in a city for no good reason? I am not understanding this. It's not okay to "enslave" our past/present enemies innocent civilian populace, but it is perfectly okay to burn them alive instead? Perhaps these abolitionist organizations should look at a bigger picture before claiming they are morally and ethically righteous.

WhiteBandit, I understand what you're saying, but let's be honest - no one is going to support a all-moral movement to stop all crimes against humanity. I know - I've tried to fight that battle before here and lost.

So you might say we're setting our sights on a more attainable goal - abolishing slavery.

No, we are not valueing foreign citizens over native citizens. We are saying that UNPAID foreign slaves deserve priority over PAID national workers in being assimilated into cities.

	03-01-2003 08:41									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Thud I think it has been clarified that the vote passed by less than 2\3rds. Even if the President fails to veto, a modified version of the bill will be introduced by this organization, bringing about moderate change directed at the goal of emancipation while making economic sense.

Thud, my friend...

You have too little faith in us

Discussion of a cabinet veto of this bill started almost as soon as it passed. A cabinet vote was already ongoing while you posted the above

The results of that vote are about to be posted by myself.

EDIT: Posted. Thud, my friend... Contrary to popular belief, we do have a backbone.

	03-01-2003 09:01									#24
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quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed Arnelos is DIA is it not?

Yes, I am. A point which has been sufficiently made by Spiffor and my joint work on this veto (and thanks to yourself and panag for voting for it as well).

quote: Does the DIA have a stance?

I haven't seen a single member of the DIA come out in favor of slavery. While the abolition of slavery didn't make it onto the party's platform for the term, you certainly can't now deny that we haven't made a stand on the issue...

quote: Can Parties become relevant?

They are most relevant when they make a stand on an issue and others who are not affiliated with them come to agree. This was always the secret the tiny Hawk Party's success and where the DIA has been successful, this has also been the case. Independents rule Apolytonia, but the parties can and have been relevant throughout Apolytonian history as founts for opposing policy options and the defense of them. This remains the case.

	03-01-2003 09:06									#25
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Lol. I suspected as much, but I always have to make a dramatic show. Three millenia was starting to show, have to keep up appearences and all.

And heck, we have a world war on our hands, I'm glad our cabinet has proved they have a backbone.

I think that the Senate will agree that you guys made the right choice on this one. And your justification is unassailable. Still, skywalker will try to assail it

Btw, I humbly recommend you try and make some official policy on the topic before someone tries to post another bill on the subject.

Of course, the Abolitionist Front would like to influence you to take a pro-emancipation stance if at all possible.

	03-01-2003 09:25									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Thud Btw, I humbly recommend you try and make some official policy on the topic before someone tries to post another bill on the subject.

The Domestic Minister must indeed create such a policy. I believe he both requested for this veto and voted in favor of it so that he may do just such a thing.

That said, I agree with E_T's concern that a more thorough plan (looking at the monetary and working details of numbers of each type of worker and what it will mean) is necessary to decide what actually should be done.

I'm sure there are some talented people willing to comment on that one

	03-01-2003 09:46									#27
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker I just realized that, if abstains are ignored... the bill actually can't be vetoed! 19 yes. 17 no. 19/(19+17) = 19/26 = 73% > 2/3!

Note to self: do not vote skywalker to any position requiring basic math.

Just had to bust on you...giving you a hard time.

	03-01-2003 10:42									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Thud Btw, I humbly recommend you try and make some official policy on the topic before someone tries to post another bill on the subject.

hi ,

and by doing so they shall only slow things down , if they have some brains they shall indeed realize the fact that the veto is needed and its going to be a benefit to us

have a nice day

panag > anyone else wants to post a bill

no-one , good

little guy stands up in the back of the senate "but Arnelos , we can not , ............." , little guy gets hit with bananapeels from panag and remains silent