02-01-2003 07:38									#1
	Do you pillage? Full PM-box? Change here!

A lot of people seem to advocate pillaging before attacking. I prefer to go straight to a selected target city and hit with everything immediately, no diversions for pillaging and no worker capturing, just "pin the ears back and go for it".

If my opponent is strong then I might (or might not depending on circumstances) wait a few turns to let the enemy throw away offensive units invading my prepared defences then to send in an overwhelming force at one point. If the enemy is weak I just go straight in. The remaing AI attacks tend to be weak for my garrisons to handle and if needed I can let the AI pillage a few of my squares. Bitzkrieg to get several juicy cities in short succession which on a small map tends to cripple the opponent. (BTW This is my strategy for small maps at Regent). I want to take cities fast so the AI has less time to build or poprush units and it seems the faster I take him down the harder it is for him to attract allies. (I think of it as the "just walk up and smash in the throat as hard you can" strategy).

I will gladly pillage strategic resources (unless they happen to be right next to my target city so they pass to my control as soon as I take the city). I sometimes pillage luxuries, particularly if I expect a long hard war.

What does everyone else do? And more importantly, why? If you DO pillage how does that tie into your strategy? If you DO NOT pillage how does that tie into your strategy? (And what level do you play?)

	02-01-2003 08:38									#2
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I also prefer to conquer the city with unpillaged tiles.

When I do pillage...
I pillage territory around a city an ally will win. He might be my ally, but he's still my competition. I also often want my allies to be slow & my defense backup, not my... ally in city conquering.
I pillage strategic resources & luxuries in enemy territory if I do not obtain the city that turn.
I pillage territory to slow down enemy troops if the position is strategic. Turning 1 railroad tile into dirt = +2movement points instead of 0.
I pillage territory if it cuts off the road connection path for luxuries & strategic resources between cities.
I pillage neutral territory, even in peace sometimes, to cut off trade routes between other Civs. This may make them 'annoyed', but it can really mess them up. This is a godsend when you & Civ B both have the same luxury and/or resource, except Civ B is selling it to Civ C. Cut their trade route, then sell your goods to Civ C instead.
I pillage many hot strategic resources in my own territory to decrease new supplies.
I think that's it....

Last edited by Pyrodrew on 02-01-2003 at 08:43

	02-01-2003 08:40									#3
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Pillaging reduces your losses in offensive campaigns, from both cultural conversions and military units. Starving a city means defenders will lose the defense bonus granted by Cities and Metros. The loss of Mines reduces the opponent's ability to produce more defenders. Disconnecting a city from the civ's trade network could put the city into disorder due to lack of Luxuries, or deny a Strategic resource. Pillaging roads slows down enemy movement within their own borders, hopefully cutting off reiforcements until it is too late.

If overwhelming force is available, there is no need to pillage, but this kind of "overwhelming" takes time to muster. Pillaging tips the conflict in your favor in case you're trying to achieve a dominant position in the first place.


Dominae

Last edited by Dominae on 02-01-2003 at 09:03

	02-01-2003 09:01									#4
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It really depends on circumstances. I find that in a lot of my wars, I'm not looking to acquire more cities; I'm looking to disrupt and cause chaos. Maybe the other civ is close to completing a wonder I've been shooting for, but I don't have the firepower to go in and take the offending city...I'll send in fast troops and pillage, hopefully gaining me a turn or three in shields, maybe more if I can throw the city into riots.

Another strategy I use is to destroy all roads around an enemy capital. Unless it has a harbor or airport, this will destroy all trade, and can often be done very quickly after the advent of bombers.

Also, I tend to keep a couple of civs on my continent a while as vassals. I want them to have some cities, but not much of a military. I'll war with them just to promote my troops, but I'll routinely destroy their resources and worker improvements.

	02-01-2003 09:59									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae If overwhelming force is available, there is no need to pillage, but this kind of "overwhelming" takes time to muster. Pillaging tips the conflict in your favor in case you're trying to achieve a dominant position in the first place. Dominae

Umh, good point. Perhaps map size plays a role here. On a tiny or small map a civ will have few cities (up to perhaps 8 cities of varying quality) so it is not overly difficult to obtain "overwhelming force", just recruit like hell and go straight in.

OTH On a huge map with maybe 32 cities each there will be plenty of garrison troops the AI can rush to the front so the "overwhelming force" may not really be obtainable so maybe one should then pillage. I have not played large maps though so would not know for sure, what do you think?

I think difficulty level definitely comes into it. At Chieftain only a small force is needed, at Warlord a modest force and at Regent a large force is needed to "overwhelm" and deal with counterattacks.

BTW Dominae, good point about starving them down to reduce the defence bonus. I had not thought of that.
Bluefrog & Pyrodew. Good points about te trade disruption. I must do that.
Thanks gents, I was hoing for good tips when I started this thread.

	02-01-2003 10:38									#6
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I used to pillage much more... long, drawn out wars and such.

Now, I generally am looking to take over territory, even if I am razing and rebuilding, and thus don;t pillage too much (except f-cking irrigated tiles!).

I'll pillage strategic resources if it makes a difference.

I haven;t done capitol isolation in a dog's age, but I remember it well and fondly... maybe something to have fun with next game.

	02-01-2003 10:51									#7
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Monarch, Standard, Continents.

In the Ancient Age, I use oscillating war to extort techs and capture workers. I really do not initiate major offensives. I use horseman and spearman almost exclusively. The horsemen use their movement to capture workers and pillage terrain. Roads between cities and resources are the first to go. I will usually base these raids of of hills or mountains near their cities. If they send out archers or warriors, I make sure to hit them with the horsies. Spearman and Swordsman are ignored for the most part. I pillage just about everything I can get to with my limited strike force. Then, a few turns later, I work in toward one of their cities and call for peace. I can usually get almost all of their techs + gold. It is also important to grab their workers, even if you have to give up a tech to get them. I back out and find another target. Twenty turns later, I'm back. Without those workers, they have not been able to get roads connected, and they are in almost in the same condition as when I left them earlier (just with a new tech). Each subsequent round is more effective, as I have almost 0 casualties. I've started using this on Emperor, and it seems even more effective (relatively speaking), as you are not going to clear your continent in the Ancient Age. I save all my money and use it to upgrade my large amounts of horseman. Now, I start picking targets for extermination. I would definitely recommend that you give this a try, just to see how effective it is for you. A key to this is using to luxury slider to keep your production high. The value of the techs and resources gained, plus the long-term damage done to the other civs will more than make up for the money spent on the luxury slider. The luxury slider is very important early. Good luck.

	02-01-2003 11:42									#8
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In general, if I can see that my foe has limited access to strategic resources, I will aim to pillage those as quickly as possible, or, barring that, cut off at least a portion of their territory from them.

Pillaging transportation networks at strategic points can be helpful in certain situations. Sending a small advance force ahead to break up the roads can give a larger, slower force behind more time to pound at cities, deal with other units, etc.

	02-01-2003 13:00									#9
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I usually just take the city near a strategic resource instead of pillaging. But if I am fighting a superior opponent I will pillage resources, ask for peace, and declare war again when they reconnect their resource.

	02-01-2003 14:43									#10
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I play mostly on standard maps at Regent. I usually avoid wars in the Ancient era and only get onto the offensive with knights. I don't pillage as my aim is to capture cities and I want the tile improvements. I do take out strategic resources with bombers, especially oil, in the later game.

	02-01-2003 17:01									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I rarely pillage, but I do bombard. If it's a defensive war, the roads/RR's on the enemies border (if they are adjacent) so that they will take an extra turn or two to enter my land. If they have Cav/MA that could give me the essential turn I need to take them out when they are on the defensive.

If I have air units then I'll use them to take out luxuries that are in range. Once I've taken them out I go after strategic resources. If I am confident that I will soon take a city then I won't touch its terrain. Cutting off a capital is also effective.

But I can't say I remember the last time I pillaged, I don't like to expose my unit on enemy soil.

	02-01-2003 20:28									#12
	Pillaging Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The Art of Pillaging

Do I pillage???

Oh my, YES!

That's not to say I always do so, but this is a major weapon in the effective Civ player's
arsenal. Others have made some good points when and why, but I'll chime in too, give some
general thoughts when, and give some examples showing how it fit in with strategic goals.

Pillaging is most useful when...
- You're facing stiff defense and/or lack overwhelming force at a given objective
- You're playing tougher difficulties (puts you in the situation of non-overwhelming forces)
- You need a 'moat' to slow fast opponents and keep them from reaching you in one turn
- You want to limit lanes of approach (ie pillage all roads except for a single road you control)
- You lack artillery to beat down a city and can starve it down (so it loses a defensive bonus)
- You have cav or explorers who can get in, pillage, get out
- You put a team of three Mech Inf behind enemy lines (move-pilage, move-pillage, move-fortify)
- You want to cause 'extra pain' to an opponent to get a better deal when demanding peace
- You have more/better defensive units than offensive units on hand
- The opponent is 'gassed' - out of offensive troops but still has high quality defenders
- It's their last/only strategic resource
- You plan to raze rather than occupy the city


Games where pillaging fit in with my strategy:
- 5CC game where I won't be capturing any cities. If I can't have it, neither can they.
I pillage to the extra if going for conquest victory. On strategic resources, follow up
with fortress and a few defenders
- Always War game (declare war with every civ the turn you meet them and never make peace)
when using a defensive UU. See RBCiv 'Epics' for an Always War with Greece where pillaging
hoplites absolutely tore up the foes
- A heavy fighting game with French taking on the Germans where I had Knights vs Muskets
and no artillery support, they were out of steam but still many defenders. I was
assaulting a few cities right next to their capital that I would never be able to hold,
and wanted to cause as much pain as possible for a good deal. Knights did the move-pillage
thing all around the city, and we camped on all 21 tiles. It went from glorious size 12
capital to a desolate wasteland of a small village, then it was razed with very few losses
- About to start a war on two fronts, vs Ottomans and Arabs simultaneously, JUST after
I got Mil Tradition and just before they got it. First move after declaring war was to
run into their territory with cav and pillage their sole horse supplies. Sure the unit got
killed, but I never did see a Siphali (!!) or an Arabian cav. Next I pillaged their iron
and saltpeter and they were toast.
- In an emperor game going for cultural victory, things were going well except they would
likely launch before I would get 20K. I was alone on an island and had negligible military.
Solution: built up a small naval fleet, with carriers and planes, and bombard-pillaged
the aluminum and uranium and oil of the top two civs. With no oil I then became the
dominant naval force (and they had NO planes), and could then at leisure build up more
navy/air and troops to land and permanently cut off those resources.
- On a deity game I threw a stack of a half-dozen Mech Infantry waaaaay behind the front
line purely for pillaging purposes. My foe didn't have much offense (I had success in an
oil denial campaign) but almost 200 infantry. The Mech Inf landed in the mountains,
took the brunt of a dozen marine attacks easily, and when no more came, they moved
onto the low ground in teams of 3. Move-pillage, move-pillage, third one move-fortify.
One pair disconnected uranium and a luxury, and the other, unbelievably, walked ENTIRELY
around the capital and cut off all 9 roads!! It was the beginning of their downfall,
and far more cost effective than an impossible offensive support behind enemy lines.

To show it's not a universal panacea, some thoughts when NOT to pillage, and strat examples:

You probably do NOT want to pillage when:
- You have overwhelming force to capture a city
- You're playing on an easier difficulty level (the above is more likely to happen)
- Time if of the essence! Pillaging IS slower
- You plan to hold the city and don't have workers with the assault force to reconnect
- The strategic resource you're fighting for is one you need, not just 'denial'
- The AI can counterattack and kill your pillaging units
- You are blitzing and need the road/railroads to stay intact to keep the attack moving

Examples:
- Once I was going against a well-developed builder civ that was in the perfect
location for my FP core of cities, and it had weak military and only about 8 cities.
I didn't pillage a single tile in my 'future home'. In fact, I didn't starve down
cities at all, and took a few extra losses to wipe them out quickly and avoid flips.
I wasn't interesting in pain or a peace settlement, I wanted their lands, and their
citizens. Once they were wiped out, the citizens were all quite content, and the
leader obtained in the campaign rushed the FP.
- Playing a civ with a UU needing Iron, I had none. We faced a civ like Persia,
and didn't want them to have Iron. If we had been very weak we may have pillaged,
but with our sufficient strength, the iron was NOT pillaged, but instead the city
was captured and held against a brisk counterattack where THEY pillaged

Basically, if you haven't tried pillaging, give it a whirl :b
Charis

	02-01-2003 21:19									#13
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I don't do all that much pillaging, because most of the time I'm attacking with fastmovers and hope to break through quickly. However, if I expect a difficult war, I will definitely put together a team or two of units and send them off to break key resources.

Riders are fantastic at that, because their 3 moves allows them to mountain hop deep into enemy territory. A stack of 3-4 will almost certainly obtain their objective.

-Arrian

	02-01-2003 21:44									#14
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My current game Monarch (my first REALLY good) start (iron and horses) the aztecs are to the north, Iriquois sw and english se. The Iriquois declared war on the aztecs and I let them thru while rexing. I finally got to the point where I wanted to be and started building my army of spearmen and horseman. My surprise Iriquois only has horses no iron. Aztecs, no horses 1 IRON! And the english neither. I declared war on the aztecs but war weariness took affect really soon. So i declared peace, but I am about to pillage their only source of Iron.

	02-01-2003 23:15									#15
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If I capture a city with the Iron Resource next door way before I'm going to use the Iron, I'll pillage the Iron resource to ensure it's still there when I need it.

Other than that, I don't pillage at all in the ancient era or middle ages. Unless I have overwhelming superiority to the next target I'm probably not at war at all during that era. (Usually AIs will demand tribute during those eras and so I'll give in if I don't want war.)

During a war in the Industrial & Modern era, I'm much more likely to be pillaging, but almost always via bombardment (either naval, air, or artllery)

	03-01-2003 02:36									#16
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If a resource I want to have, or want to deny, is just inside another civs borders I may, when at war, move a settler in and plant a city right on top of that resource. I rarely do this but it is very very useful when taking the appropriate enemy city is too hard or inconvenient (such as when involved in a two front war). One must be aware of the possibility of your new town culture flipping though.

If the resource is right on their border I am inclined to build a town right on my border and put in culture buildings to make my border expand to include that resource. No war is needed but your city is likely to be in a suboptimal situation (worth it for the resource though).

I think this can be an alternative to pillaging as well as a good way to snaffle resources.

	03-01-2003 03:35									#17
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If it is a weak civ which I can easily conquor then no I don't pillage. Anyone else can and does get pillaged on a regular baises.

	03-01-2003 05:47									#18
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I dont usually pillage. But it is usually just because I don't think of it at the time But in my last game, I was fighting the arabs, and they had a source of iron. I pillaged it, and placed a few swordsmen on it. It made the rest of the war much easier, as teh Arabs archers were just impalling themselves on my swordsmen.