02-01-2003 09:16									#1
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This is what I intend to send to Vox Controli. Please vote accordingly. You may select more than one poll item.

In the spirit of "keeping it moving", It will expire in 24 hours or once 14 "ballots submitted", whichever comes first.

If you feel that some options need alternat wording, please post it.



Greetings again friend BetaHound and Vox Controli:

We hope your journey has been going well. It can always be touch and go with those barbarians. They never are open to reason. With them it’s always kill or be killed. Enough about them, we want to talk about more civilized things, our two great nations and our future relationship.

As an act of good faith, we are willing to cease northern exploration for the duration of these negotiations while asking Vox Controli to cease southward exploration for the same duration.

Gathering Storm has put together several proposals and we would appreciate your open consideration of them. Please feel free to counter-offer where you see fit. Our goal is to negotiate and make deals mutually beneficial. We will consider any deal you are interested in making as well. The following is a list of our proposal

1. Temporary cessation of north/south exploration as described above.
2. We primarily want to open up the possibility of becoming research partners with Vox Controli. Is this something Vox is interested in?
3. How does Vox Controli feel about exchanging information regarding luxuries it possesses (will be roaded by 1000 BC) for the same information from Gathering Storm.
4. We propose simultaneously revealing to each other, the other nations each of us have contacted (in-game) before now. This proposal also includes an exchange of information of who is beyond Gathering Storm for who is beyond Vox Controli. Is Vox Controli interested?
5. As you can see, there is a choke point on our continent. What are your thoughts regarding this in relationship to troop movment?

	02-01-2003 09:31									#2
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We haven't seen any barbarians so far, and I view your allusion to them as excessively misleading. If this does turn out to be a "sedantary barbarians" map, chances are they'll figure it out eventually.

I vote "yes" on "1".

"2" needs a more limited wording for the time being. If we turn out to be alone, I want a full research partnership. If not, I'd rather do trading on an ad hoc basis (preferably trying to trade the same tech to two or more civs at once where practical) with maybe a little ad hoc short-term joint planning.

With "3", we need to either make the date sooner (e.g. 2000 or 1500 BC) or put it in terms of all luxuries found. As worded, they're likely to be upset when they find out about the incense if we don't reveal it, and if we do reveal the incense, we may as well ask them to reveal everything they've found.

"4" is misleading in that it carries a fairly strong implication that we've met someone else. The wording needs to be in terms of "who, if anyone" instead of just "who." But I would definitely support it with that modificaiton.

I like your approach on "5" because it just might spur a useful information leak.

Nathan

	02-01-2003 10:02									#3
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I can edit the first post to reflect these changes if people think it appropriate.

Per ,nbarclay

How is this..

2. We want to explore the possibility of becoming future technology partners.

3. How does Vox Controli feel about exchanging information regarding luxuries it has found and considers "in its territory" regardless of current game borders?


As for Item 4, I deliberatly used "connotation" in what I wrote to create a sense of "Maybe, we-have-something-they-dont" It can give them a sence of "well get something for nothing". Maybe it is too much and I can see it backfiring. I will let it stand as is for now in the poll, but can easily change it to....

4. We propose simultaneously revealing, to each other, who, if anyone, each of us have made contact with (in-game) before now. This proposal also includes an exchange of information of who, if anyone, is on-the-other-side of Gathering Storm for who, if anyone, is on-the-other-side of Vox Controli. Is Vox Controli interested in such an exchange of information


This is a work in progress. I want to get this to BetaHound by 8PM PDT.

Mss

	02-01-2003 10:04									#4
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Also that barbarian thing was intended to be small talk. I can change it, I do not want it to be misleading, but even goodie huts yield barbarians......

Mss

	02-01-2003 10:29									#5
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I like the revised "2" okay.

For "3", how about, "How does Vox Controli feel about exchanging information regarding luxuries each of us has found and expects to have in our borders after we finish expanding?"

Is there some particular reason for the second sentence in "4"? It seems redundant since we only know about civs we've met. Also, my concern is that if we lead them to expect something from us and they don't get it, they'll trust us less. And if the two of us do end up needing to be partners, we need all the trust we can get.

Regarding barbarians, granted, goodie huts can contain barbarians, but the one hut we found (and probably the only one we'll ever find on this continent) didn't. So we'd be misleading them in any case.

Nathan

	02-01-2003 16:05									#6
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I think that #4 will cause mistrust in any other form other than trading a yes/no answer to whether we met anyone else on the continent.

As for #5, i think turning that attention towards that strategic chockepoint might backfire- maybe they won't notice it or give it enough attention. And also- by reffering to that point and mentioning troop movement- we hint them that war might be broken between us anytime soon, and we certainly don't want them to seriously prepare for war.

	02-01-2003 16:07									#7
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Hmm, for some reason it won't let me vote.
Add my vote to any version (so far) of item #1, #2 and #3.

	02-01-2003 20:56									#8
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I like #1-4, especially #3. As we'll need to road the jungle anyway to allow our war chariots to pass through, we might as well make them believe that we're merely interested in a trade route (and even get them to help us complete the road ).
Regarding #5, as said before, we don't want to draw their attention to the fact that we've noticed the strategical importance of the choke point and that we've been pondering the possibility of a war.

	02-01-2003 21:44									#9
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I like it, and basically agree with Nathan's suggested changes.

-Arrian

	02-01-2003 22:01									#10
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We should send it, it's nearly their turn..

Send it to at least 2 of them, Eli and Dissident are online very often..
(they could be playing deaf/blind on purpose)

	02-01-2003 22:22									#11
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I suggest that we change the wording of article #2 to clearly imply that we are looking for a long-term research partner. Hopefully, Vox will read the planted subtext and believe that we are not considering war.

	02-01-2003 22:43									#12
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quote: believe that we are not considering war.

We're not.... merely just looking at all the angles/options

	02-01-2003 22:46									#13
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quote: Originally posted by alva We're not.... merely just looking at all the angles/options

And if you buy that...

	02-01-2003 23:08									#14
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I like proposal 4 as is. If any mistrust ensues because we do not have a contact to reveal and they do, we can offer something as compensation. Given that all our recent strategy-talk depends on whether or not we're alone with Vox, we simply must propose this one.

All other modified proposals sound fine.


Dominae

	02-01-2003 23:23									#15
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I am at work for now and will be for about 7 hrs. I can not give the final write up the attention it needs untill 6PM PST. I hope this is OK. If not, someone will have to finish distilling the points form this poll and post a final document. In short, it will be unlikely that I can get it out by the wnd of their turn unless we ask them to stop the game. I think it would be best to let the game go on and let the world wonder. We will be negotiating by the beginning of their next turn.

FYI, I am in agreement with many of nbarclay's comments.

Specific replies....

Shiber - I think a general open question is necessary to start. We can broach it in more depth once we get their input on the general concept. I also like your commets about the trade route.

Alva- I am at work and will not be able to send it prior to this evening. If someone else has the time today to distill the notes in tghis thread for a final draft, that would help, but either way I can send the finalversion by 6-8PM PST tonight.


Mss

	02-01-2003 23:26									#16
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BTW is someone messing with us? I see a vote for a block, but no post explaining why?

If you think this diplomatic mission is a bad idea, tell us why?

Mss

	02-01-2003 23:32									#17
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I think we should send this document out ASAP. So, I'll gladly touch up your original post with our changes and send it off to the Voxians. Anything in particular I should be focusing on, or that I may easily forget?


Dominae

	02-01-2003 23:41									#18
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Dominae:

Go for it. The help is appreciated, I would follow nbclays comments they seam to temper the tone and hold us to the straight and narrow. I have some revised comments after the first few posts. If you can pull it together, that would be great. Also open up the letter with a bit of cordial sm,all talk. it was pointed out that the barbarian bit is misleading, do we really want that? post the "final" here before you send it for final buy -off.

mss

	03-01-2003 00:25									#19
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I'll have a draft ready within the hour (I only start school again on Monday...lots of free time).


Dominae

	03-01-2003 01:22									#20
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Below is a copy of the version I just came up with. I've tried to keep the same tone as Manic's orignial message. The only major addition is a "explanation" sentences after each proposal providing the (usually obvious) reasoning behind our offers. What do you think?

Edit: Incorporated alva's suggestion for the second paragraph.

Dominae


-----

Greetings again friend BetaHound and Vox Controli:

We hope your journey has been going well. Your warriors appear well-trained, well-fed and happy (not to mention quiet muscular!), so we can only assume your nation is at least as glorious as ours, if not more. We are therefore pleased to have contacted you at the beginning of this new era. Who knows what the future will hold? Let us become masters of our own fates and discuss our future relationship.

As an act of good faith, we ask that Vox Controli cease southern exploration for the duration of these negotiations; Gathering Storm will do the same in turn for the northern direction.

Gathering Storm has put together several proposals and we would appreciate your open consideration of them. Please feel free to counter-offer where you see fit. Our goal is to negotiate and make deals mutually beneficial. We will seriously consider any additional deal you bring to the table. The following is a list of our proposals:

1. Temporarily cease North/South exploration as described above. This act of good faith would be the basis for any future negotations.

2. Begin discussion of a potential tech-trading parternship between our two teams. Tech trading would effectively double our respective research rates, ensuring a tech advantage on the world scene.

3. Exchange information regarding luxuries each of us has discovered North and South of the isthmus (South for us, North for you). Connecting our empires and trading luxuries promises obvious economic advantages.

4. Simultaneously reveal to each other either: 1) whether or not we have contacted another team, or further 2) precisely which other team(s) we have already contacted. Our future plans depend critically on who our neighbors are, so obtaining this information early should prove useful to both of us.

5. Discuss what to do about the chokepoint/isthmus with regards to unit movement. The isthmus is clearly and important landmark, and reaching an understanding as to its use would reduce early tensions between our teams.


We hope to hear from you in the very near future; please contact us before your next turn, or before the next one at the latest. We apologize for requiring this deadline, but time is of the essence.


Sincerely,

ManicStarSeed and Gathering Storm

Last edited by Dominae on 03-01-2003 at 02:23

	03-01-2003 01:45									#21
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Sounds good to me,

quote: As an act of good faith, we are willing to cease northern exploration for the duration of these negotiations and ask Vox Controli to cease southward exploration for the same duration.

Could you just turn this around.
IE: if they stop going south, we will stop heading north..
(it's a power thing..)

	03-01-2003 02:36									#22
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Looks good to me, I see that Dominae applied the change that alva suggested. I will send the document to BetaHound, Dissident and Eli unless someone posts here in the next 15 minutes with anything further to add/modiy or whatever...

Mss

[edit] some silly tag thing obliterated the original message..

Last edited by ManicStarSeed on 03-01-2003 at 02:47

	03-01-2003 02:44									#23
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BTW: i just sent Dissident a PM asking him if he could check his box regularly..

	03-01-2003 02:54									#24
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Sounds good, but a couple little things:

In 5, "clearly and important landmark" should be "clearly an important landmark".

In the last paragraph, "before your next turn, or before the turn after that at the very latest" would sound better. Also, a better last sentence might be, "We apologize if requesting such a quick response causes any inconvenience, but time is of the essence." I really don't like the tone the terms "requiring" and "deadline" create.

Nathan

	03-01-2003 03:00									#25
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Nathan's edits sound good. I believed I used the words 'require' and 'deadline' because I was cheesed that they have not contacted us yet...


Dominae

	03-01-2003 03:01									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae We hope to hear from you in the very near future; please contact us before your next turn, or before the next one at the latest. We apologize for requiring this deadline, but time is of the essence.

This is not right... what are we trying to say here, that we want a reply in on or two turns? I can fix this but need to know

	03-01-2003 03:02									#27
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Made edits per nbarclays comments.

	03-01-2003 03:03									#28
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We want them to acknowledge our message before they play their 2950BC turn. If we did not send our message in time, they should contact us before their next turn. That's what I meant to say.

Manic, will you do the most recent edits or should I?


Dominae

	03-01-2003 03:04									#29
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BTW

I am a little "off-ed" as We did not even get a confimation message from BetaHound and I know he was online. In short, they played an entire turn without acknowledging we exist.

Mss

	03-01-2003 03:05									#30
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Edis made and cross posting left and right