02-01-2003 12:05									#1
	An Evening and a Cup of Tea with Togas, Roleplay Team Leader Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I talked with Togas, the despot (leader) of the Roleplay team for about 2 hours earlier today, during which I introduced our team and discussing many matters of importance with him.

To summarize, our relations with Roleplay team are now superb. I discussed many potential trade possibilities with Togas, in addition to many other matters of domestic and diplomatic interest.

I wanted to start on a strong and friendly footing, so I was willing to be very cordial and willing to give out some general information about our situation to gain his trust, and it worked perfectly. Their location is directly south of what is a rather large jungle that spans most (or perhaps all of) the continent east-west, so any information we give about ourselves will not threaten our national security in any way. The information I gave out about us was as follows:
Our general location (north-east part of our continent), the fact that we have contact with NDE and GoW, what techs we have, the fact that we're near to finishing research on Iron Working, and our diplomatic situation with NDE and GoW.

The information I discovered about Roleplay was this:
All of their team must answer to Togas… if he agrees to something, then that's how it is. None of this NDE dilly-dallying until their team can have a poll. Their location is just south of the large jungle, near the coast on the south-east part of our continent. They have contact with only us and NDE. They don't know if there is another civ to their west on our continent, but are exploring to the west. They're in discussions with another team and they have a strong belief that this team is on another continent, and may possibly trade mini-maps with them. They have one more tech than us (Alphabet), and are about 20 turns away from Writing. They currently have a warrior scout heading north a bit further west, and should make contact with NDE's southern border fairly soon.

These are the things Togas and I came to an agreement about:
Roleplay is very interested in starting up an alliance of sorts where each of us researches a different part of the tech tree, then trade them to each other for mutual benefit. The rough plan we sketched out at the moment is for us to research the more 'military' oriented techs and the techs they lead to (e.g. Iron Working, Horseback Riding, etc.), while they will aim for Code of Laws, Map Making, Monarchy, and other similar techs. They're very interested in trading for Iron Working in the near future. I convinced them that NDE isn't to be trusted too much, and that they might start a war over land some time in the near future due to their situation. Overall, they are very interested in a positive and productive relationship with us.

And here's the kicker: Togas was willing for us to enter into a military alliance. He gave me guarantees that should we be attacked by NDE/GoW, Roleplay would secretly strike NDE from the south with multiple Archer/Swordsmen units and utterly destroy NDE from beneath. From the way we talked, I can assure you that this was a very legitimate guarantee, and he's not simply trying to take advantage of us.

It was, IMO, a very productive meeting, and I think both teams will be much better due to our discussions. I'm going to set up a poll on whether or not to enter a tech/military alliance with them, so look for the thread...

	02-01-2003 12:38									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

we need alphabet for the Great library project. I think that should be our priority wonder not pyramid since we are technologically behind now.

	02-01-2003 13:07									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

We are not technologically behind. Roleplay is one tech in front, but we'll have Iron Working before they have Writing. Plus, we have contact with GoW, which opens up nice trade possibilities.

Don't count on any military support soon - the Roleplay team should be REX-ing, too. But we can use them to threaten ND in any way, since ND borders both us and Roleplay. "Don't expand to the east, unless you'll want a war with two Civs..."

Trip, did you know Togas before you had your cup of tea with him? (how) can you be sure he is as transparent / friendly as you claim he is?

Did you discuss any border? The jungle, perhaps?

Is there any way we can do this with GoW, too?

	02-01-2003 13:22									#4
	Support Apolyton

The informal border for now, as agreed to by us, will be the jungle. Everything north of it is ours, everything south of it is theirs. The jungle itself is assumed to be a sort of 'no man's land' for now.

While I'm sure that Roleplay won't drop everything to come to our aid, they will help. In response to your other question, I've known Togas for about 6 months, ever since my term as president of the Civ 3 Demo Game. If I was to be re-elected to a second term, I was going to have him become a judge of the newly-established court. However, I didn't, and the deal fell through, but we've still had a rather cordial relationship for a very long time, so yes, I can be sure that we can trust him.

There's a possibility that we can make a similar deal with GoW (I'll discuss things with them tomorrow), but it's not as likely. The main factor we have to our benefit with Roleplay is distance... they're quite a long ways away, and the jungle prevents a strong natural border that they won't be too anxious to cross. GoW is as close to us as NDE, and if they build their city to their east, then they'll be even closer to us than NDE, which is a bad thing for relations. It will be a touchy situation, but I'll try to get whatever I can from discussions.

	02-01-2003 13:23									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Calc II we need alphabet for the Great library project. I think that should be our priority wonder not pyramid since we are technologically behind now.

At this point I really doubt we can win the race to any wonders, or at least any important ones. GL is, arguably, the most desireable wonder in the game. If there are teams like Roleplay that already have Alphabet, and are rather close to getting writing, then we're probably too far behind to consider trying to win the race to GL.

	02-01-2003 13:31									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

The winning of the race depends on production in a good city, not on who gets to Literature first. That helps, though.

	02-01-2003 13:37									#7
	Support Apolyton

Yes, that is true, but do we really want to sacrifice the resources necassary to build it?

I feel that trading with our neighbors will be enough to stay on par or ahead of most teams in the area of technology. This is especially true once we establish the trading deal with Roleplay. It would be more of a liability than a good investment.

	02-01-2003 13:39									#8
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

If we're not on Pangea, we're in a relative good trading position with 3 neighbours.

	02-01-2003 13:41									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Which would be quite enough to justify not building the GL.
As long as we're active in our foreign relations and make sure we always check and see if there's any tech trading to be done, then we'll be fine in the area of techs... the extra tech we get from each era, cheaper libraries and the deal with Roleplay will give us all the advantages we need. Further trading with other teams will only help more.

	02-01-2003 13:42									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yes, that is what I was trying to say.

It would be great to have a 2nd tech-research deal, though.

	03-01-2003 02:52									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Between our trade with GoW and Roleplay, the GL becomes less and less important...

We're technologically advanced, and if we trade Roleplay for Alphabet, we'll be the strongest team tech-wise in the game! Three cheers!

Last edited by Trip on 03-01-2003 at 03:02

	03-01-2003 02:58									#12
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Trip We're not technologically advanced,

Yes we are. We are just not technologically backwards.

	03-01-2003 03:03									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Did someone edit my post or did I really say that?

	03-01-2003 03:06									#14
	Put an end to popups!

You did say that....

	03-01-2003 03:12									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Heh... I meant to say we ARE technologically advanced.

	03-01-2003 04:25									#16
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Yep. Sid doesn't lie.

So Togas is the El Supremo of RPstan? Kinda goes against the idea of a demogame. (Of course, it's better than the other extreme, a leader that is more or less a puppet of the majority, represented in the PTWDG my NDE. )

So, any guesses on where the other three teams are to be found?

	03-01-2003 07:14									#17
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Probably not too close..I doubt that any of the teams we have met have met anyone else yet. There may be two continents...but we just dont know that yet.

	03-01-2003 10:45									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

You doubt anyone has met anyone else? Why?
We've met Roleplay, NDE and GoW. GoW has met NDE and us. Roleplay has met NDE and us. For all we know NDE knows of more civs than we do.

	03-01-2003 21:52									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I don't know, I have a feeling that there's two continents too...

	04-01-2003 05:42									#20
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

This was a message from Roleplay,

As you may know by now, our two great civilizations have now met in the Game. We have sent an offer to trade our amazing technology - The Alphabet - through the diplomacy screen in the Game. We are looking to see what you may be willing to trade for this great technology, which will open the door to Writing and Map Making.

Please let me know as soon as possible so that we may expedite any deal.

Thank you for your prompt consideration,


I suggest we only trade iron working for 2 other medium strength techs, maybe alphabet and writing?.

Maybe NDE would be more cooperative if we scared them a bit, but I still think we need to try and keep peaceful with them till the Middle ages.

	07-01-2003 20:54									#21
	Suffering from ads?

Hmmm....my two cents (or 1.25$ rather) as the War Minister:

1) I like the approach of RolePlay. Indeed, if this Togas is a man of his word, and not just a man of great words, then the RP team may be comfortable letting him lead them. He sounds like a benevolent and far-thinking leader, much more pragmatic than the chaos clouding the leadership of NDE. My guess is that while NDE appears to be hampered by immature and unstable leadership, RP has the direct opposite. Togas strikes me as a man of confidence and personality, backed by popular support within his team. I would trust his word for at least the next three thousand years or the middle ages, which ever comes first

2) I like the idea of us researching the military track in exchange for the more cultural or economic technologies. First, we'll have a military edge if they renig, and second, we'll have a great technological advantage over NDE and possibly GoW.

3) Ditch the GL, but we should build a wonder of import, my vote would be those that enhance our economy and happiness. I vote for either the Oracle or the Colossus, and when we get Monarchy, we should definitely go for the Hanging Guardens. My bet is that GoW will go for the Great Wall and RP will go for the GL.

4) The Oracle is also a great cultural wonder to have, and it will double the effectiveness of our temples. We may only be able to reach two luxury resources, which will suffice with two spearmen and a temple until size 6 or 7, but with the Oracle we could make it to size 9 I think. The Hanging Guardens will keep our cities content to size 10 or 11.

5) Happy cities work harder and build larger armies faster!!!

6) NDE must fall, and any allie against NDE will be an allie worth having.

	08-01-2003 02:09									#22
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by WarriorPoet 1) I like the approach of RolePlay. Indeed, if this Togas is a man of his word, and not just a man of great words, then the RP team may be comfortable letting him lead them. He sounds like a benevolent and far-thinking leader, much more pragmatic than the chaos clouding the leadership of NDE. My guess is that while NDE appears to be hampered by immature and unstable leadership, RP has the direct opposite. Togas strikes me as a man of confidence and personality, backed by popular support within his team. I would trust his word for at least the next three thousand years or the middle ages, which ever comes first

As I've known Togas for over 6 months now, I can assure you he's a man of his word. I mean, he's a lawyer for Christ's sake.

quote: 2) I like the idea of us researching the military track in exchange for the more cultural or economic technologies. First, we'll have a military edge if they renig, and second, we'll have a great technological advantage over NDE and possibly GoW.

Yep... I have the feeling that we'll be involved in quite a few wars of defense in our playing time, so us having the military tech advantage is a good bonus.

quote: 3) Ditch the GL, but we should build a wonder of import, my vote would be those that enhance our economy and happiness. I vote for either the Oracle or the Colossus, and when we get Monarchy, we should definitely go for the Hanging Guardens. My bet is that GoW will go for the Great Wall and RP will go for the GL.

Wonders will only hamper our progress in other areas... we must pursue them only if we have extra resources. Right now (and in the forseeable future), we do not have any to spare.

quote: 4) The Oracle is also a great cultural wonder to have, and it will double the effectiveness of our temples. We may only be able to reach two luxury resources, which will suffice with two spearmen and a temple until size 6 or 7, but with the Oracle we could make it to size 9 I think. The Hanging Guardens will keep our cities content to size 10 or 11.

I think one or both of these would be good. Between temples and all of our luxuries, that's an instant 4 or 5 happy people.

quote: 5) Happy cities work harder and build larger armies faster!!!

Of course.

quote: 6) NDE must fall, and any allie against NDE will be an allie worth having.

All in good time...

	08-01-2003 18:25									#23
	Tired of ads?

I'm going to try and work up our defensive strategy in a more visual analysis. I understand that this has been extensively verbalized, but it may help to have some graphics to illustrate our plans.

On my next break from work, of course