02-01-2003 14:33									#1
	Pamplona's goody hut Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

During the turnchat yesterday, it was decided that Pamplona would train a new group of warriors and immediately send it to explore the nearby native village. I know I'm a pessimistic guy, but what if we meet some hostile barbarian troops in this village? Those raging hordes would be ideally placed to easily wreak havoc into our magnificient new city, steal most of our gold, and kill our slaves (or at least greatly disturb their work). Maybe it would be wiser to build spearmen first to defend the city, then build a warrior to continue exploration and pop the goody hut.

	02-01-2003 16:01									#2
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I agree Crousto

On the other hand, Now I see that the cows of pamplona are on grassland tiles, not on plain tiles.

This means that the production of these tiles are 3 food, 1 shield. In such a case, these tiles should be mined, not irrigated, to have 3 food and 2 shields in each, and alow a good ratio food/production to Pamplona

	02-01-2003 18:40									#3
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While Togas did mention this during the chat, I would hesitate to say it has been decided.

Keep in mind that there is at least one ND scout walking around who might trip the hut before the soonest we could, in 7 turns (5 to build, 2 to move). If we wait for the Madrid spearman it will take an additional turn (4 to build, 4 to move).

Also, there has been a complete absence of any barbarians to date - which may indicate that the Barbarian (random) setting ended up Sedentary. If it did, does that decrease the likelyhood of barbarians from goodie huts as well?

	02-01-2003 19:17									#4
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I have finally built the scenario I needed to take a closer look at Pamplona's production. It had to include Madrid in order to account for corruption in our fair city.

I will start running different scenarios and will advise. Offhand, I would say that the slaves should keep their distance for the time being. I'm a pop-rush kind of person; I would probably suggest sending off the warriors when then are built and use Pamplona's size 2 status to pop a spearman on the same turn that the warrior gets the goodie hut. If no barbarians come out, the queue could be switched to a city improvement like a temple or granary or left to finish the spearman, but I will have to run the scenario before I know the full effects of the 20-turn unhappiness it will reap.

	02-01-2003 20:19									#5
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I know that it doesn't sound very wise, but I suggest that we should take the risk of popping that hut ASAP. I would also prefer to build spearmen first, were it not that ND has already so many techs. We cannot afford to let them gain another advantage, tech or no tech.
[no rp]I thought that the goody huts are not dependant of the barbarian level scale. They're random.[/no rp]

Aidun Cian.

	02-01-2003 20:29									#6
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quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser I would probably suggest sending off the warriors when then are built and use Pamplona's size 2 status to pop a spearman on the same turn that the warrior gets the goodie hut.

We can't make this because barbarians could appear right next to the city (on the cows tiles). If we order a pop rush at the very same turn, the barbarians would still pillage the city before the start of the next turn and the creation of the spearman.

	02-01-2003 20:35									#7
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pop it - we can always handle as ruby_master suggested above.

we need to beat ND there, in case they head that way, and we may get a good tech to sell around.

	02-01-2003 20:44									#8
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Could someone check the screenshots from when we saw that ND scout, and figure out the minimum number of turns it would take them to reach the hut?

	02-01-2003 20:55									#9
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TEG could enter the hut in 7 turns.

	02-01-2003 21:20									#10
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Then we might send TEG to pop it and build spearmen in the meantime in Pamplona. Good idea DAVOUT!

Aidun Cian

	02-01-2003 21:22									#11
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT TEG could enter the hut in 7 turns.

But TEG is assigned to making contact with GoW. How soon could the Magyar Warriors get there?

	02-01-2003 21:44									#12
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8 turns

	02-01-2003 21:45									#13
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The Magyar Warriors can be on the goodyhut square in 8 turns. They'r even exploring a little piece of the unknown terrain west of Pamplona.
The Magyar Warriors can be at the current location of TEG in 14 turns.
It seems better to let the Magyar Warriors pop the hut and let TEG explore for ND scouts.

Aidun Cian

	02-01-2003 21:54									#14
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Build the warrior.
Use it to pop the hut.
Keep it nearby to defend our two cities until we get some spears.
Then use it to scout, but only around the two cities.
Once the next settler is ready, use it to guard it to position.
This little bad boy is usefull now, and upgradable to a very usefull sword then flail.

	02-01-2003 22:00									#15
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Sound like a plan, GK.

As for the Warrior on Pamplona, have him built, pop the hut and then send him off to have him finish exploring the reast of the valley of the Cows.

ND's scouts will likely get down here soon, and we need to have the rest of our Area explored soon, or we will likely not get any other huts.

E_T

	02-01-2003 22:03									#16
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GodKing, E_T - you seem to both be overlooking the potential demise of Pamplona if the hut is barbarians. We are discussing the best way to avoid the risk.

	02-01-2003 22:16									#17
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I'm currently playing three other PBEM games and I've never seen barbarians in.

Is there a bug ? do you have some experience on it ?

	02-01-2003 22:19									#18
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The first hut I popped in a PBEM I'm playing unleashed 3 barbs

	02-01-2003 22:36									#19
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we could move the spearman Madrid is about to build (I know it says 12 turns as of 3000 B.C. but it could be as early as 2850 B.C. when they actually come online; Madrid is about to grow and get good shield production again.

We could move those spearmen next to Pamplona and have them wait there on the turn that the hut is popped. If barbarians come out, spear defends Pamplona; otherwise, it goes back to Madrid.

The only problem would be that Madrid will reach size 3 and be temporarily without a garrison, but we could bump the entertainment slider accordingly.

	02-01-2003 23:18									#20
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quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser we could move the spearman Madrid is about to build (I know it says 12 turns as of 3000 B.C. but it could be as early as 2850 B.C. when they actually come online; Madrid is about to grow and get good shield production again. We could move those spearmen next to Pamplona and have them wait there on the turn that the hut is popped. If barbarians come out, spear defends Pamplona; otherwise, it goes back to Madrid. The only problem would be that Madrid will reach size 3 and be temporarily without a garrison, but we could bump the entertainment slider accordingly.

That sounds good, ruby_maser. The spear will be ready in another 3 turns, and will then take 4 turns to get to Pamplona. So the warrior built in Pamplona (in 4 turns) won't have to wait long either:

2950: Warrior in 4 turns, Spearmen in 3
2900: Warrior in 3 turns, Spearmen in 2
2850: Warrior in 2 turns, Spearmen in 1
2800: Warrior in 1 turns, Spearmen moves W
2750: Warrior waits, Spearmen moves W
2700: Warrior waits, Spearmen moves W
2650: Warrior moves NW, Spearmen moves W
2600: Warrior moves W (pops hut), Spearmen in Pamplona

	03-01-2003 00:35									#21
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quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser We could move those spearmen next to Pamplona and have them wait there on the turn that the hut is popped. If barbarians come out, spear defends Pamplona; otherwise, it goes back to Madrid.

Great idea

	03-01-2003 01:03									#22
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What will they do - steal our gold. What gold?
Steal our production - we will only have a few shields built up. Nothing significant, only 2 turns. If we build a warrior second - it might be ready just in case.
Steal our people - well, that could hurt, but only a bit.

No. Barbarians are not much of a threat. That assumes they will go streight for the city. FIRST they have to appear, THEN they have to go after us.... NO, it is not a significant threat yet. Just pop it ASAP.

	03-01-2003 03:35									#23
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing No. Barbarians are not much of a threat. That assumes they will go streight for the city. FIRST they have to appear, THEN they have to go after us.... NO, it is not a significant threat yet. Just pop it ASAP.

Well, I ran enough scenarios enough to differ with you on that a bit, GK. I set it up without preserving the random seed so I could get different results and then just kept reloading the game and popping the hut.

Of the about 20 times that I ran it through, 7-8 times it was barbarians and not just one unit but usually 3. On two occassions the random placement of the barbarians put them right by poor, undefended Pamplona. I got a mixture of results when it wasn't barbarians: region maps, skilled warriors, a tech once or twice, but I think I think the risk should be addressed.

I will petition Governor Arnelos about the matter. Hopefully, he will consider releasing his upcoming garrison of spearmen for what Señor Dejon called a "defense exercise" to safeguard Pamplona against rape and pillage and prevent the looting of our treasury.

	03-01-2003 03:51									#24
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As noted by GodKing, the damage of a barbarian assault can't be dramatic. However sending the Madrid spearmen to Pamplona according to Ruby_maser's plan will just delay the opening of the hut by 2 turns, NeuDem's scout should not reach it within that timeframe. Also we'll really need a spearman in both cities (especially Madrid) within 7-8 turns, as Lux Invicta's warrior is approaching.

	03-01-2003 04:02									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Crousto Also we'll really need a spearman in both cities (especially Madrid) within 7-8 turns, as Lux Invicta's warrior is approaching.

Señor Crousto, it is my intention to have Pamplona's tiles micromanaged briefly to use to forest to her SW once she becomes size 2. After the warriors are completed, a spearman will be the next queue and will come more quickly if we utilize the 2 shields the forest provides.

	03-01-2003 09:16									#26
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quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser I will petition Governor Arnelos about the matter. Hopefully, he will consider releasing his upcoming garrison of spearmen for what Señor Dejon called a "defense exercise" to safeguard Pamplona against rape and pillage and prevent the looting of our treasury.

I have received your petitition (OOC: I got your PM).

[OOC]

I've been offline for nearly 2 days now and I've obviously missed out on some events. As I responded to you via PM, I need to look at this more closely.

If I don't have a definitive answer regarding this in time, I'm sure Togas, as our benevolent and wise supreme leader, will likely make a decision in the interests of the entire nation (as my orders for Madrid are, afterall, but advice for him that he is free to contradict ).

That said, I hope to be able to take a closer look at this and be able to submit an altered long-range plan for Madrid that takes into account the need for Madrid to produce defense for Pamplona.

	03-01-2003 10:29									#27
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I never dreamed a single goody hut could generate such a long thread.

	03-01-2003 14:51									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Thrumble I never dreamed a single goody hut could generate such a long thread.

Isn't it great? And some people thought that a slow game would be boring!

	03-01-2003 14:55									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Crousto As noted by GodKing, the damage of a barbarian assault can't be dramatic.

Well, señor Crousto, IMHO we are not micromanaging our empire to lose all in a bad decision about a good hut. I really believe this would hurt us terribly, since an small diference at the begining is a big different at the end.

quote: Originally posted by Crousto Also we'll really need a spearman in both cities (especially Madrid) within 7-8 turns, as Lux Invicta's warrior is approaching.

This also bothers me. I am not happy seeing this warriors coming. I'm worried about the lifes of our spanish citizens.

	03-01-2003 14:56									#30
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And also, remember. I'm totally against using the worker to open the hut.