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waynehead
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Durham, NC
Nov 1999
time: 05:13
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Alright, I'm a builder at heart, but I can wage war with the best of 'em. Anyway, I usually choose Morgan or Deidre, maybe Lal, and do fairly well with that. But I thought I'd mix it up and try a faction I had stayed away from, the Drones. That -2 tech w/out Miriam's bonuses scared me too much.
Well, I sure did underestimate these guys. Playing on Transcend-Large map w/ no aliens, I was put on the bottom of the map. I built 5 core bases, went Democratic-Planned, and got the 40% industry bonus. I guess Yang never really taught me the power of high industry. By mid 2300s, I've built every single SP, even the frikkin Empath Guild, and I've waged war with Yang, Miriam and Cha Dawn with my peripheral bases; and I'm well on my way to conquest by early 2400s.
Has anyone had success with these guys? Granted, I was given an easily defensible position, and was playing with tech steal. But I was blown away with how easy it was to develop infrastructure and crank out the troops. I think I'm in love... 
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TigToad
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Glendale, AZ USA
Dec 1999
time: 22:13
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I've played quite a few games with the drones, i consider them one of my three favorite factions for a good, fun game. After about 10 games with them (all on huge planets) I've found they can dominate easily or get really left behind. They have a hard time coming up with the early techs you need to get growing, especialy in a blind game. They also don't quite have the support to hold tons of units. However, once you get the core techs in (mobility, ecology, impact techs), you can walk over the opponents..it can happen, in I think 4 techs. Once you start capturing bases (and getting the techs from them) you can stock up on secret projects and victory is all but inevitable.
However, if you get stuck on a large land mass by yourself, you never get the techs you need, adding flexibility to the 'need' list and you also have to add probe teams by that point, too..it can be a tough game. Just watch the computer, it almost never does well with the drones. However, on the rare occassions it does, they can be quite scary.
Daniel-Tig
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waynehead
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Durham, NC
Nov 1999
time: 05:13
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Yeah, that's the thing. I purposefully played on a large map instead of huge, b/c the last thing I want is Zakky or Aki getting dropped on the monsoon jungle and I'm left alone on some solitary continent, with no one to talk to. You need to communicate with someone, just to stay behind the curve w/ Domai.
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David Byron
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I suspect this is like the idea that the way to get more research is to just get the research bonus SEs and University / Consciousness. That's the obvious way but boosting economy is better. Similarly I think there are better *system wide* methods of boosting your industry. Obvious a Borg approach specialises in producing many "bore-cities" [and they can be pretty tedious to micromanage but I mean a size one city working a borehole].
Actually *they* are quite easy to maintain compared to most, because there's zero food excess.
I have hardly noticed Cha Dawn's industry penalty and another thing the bore-city approach gets you is the ability to effortlessly support the troops once made.
I would imagine that a good working production system, even within a more conventional game style, could out perform a bad one by at least 20% in the same way as the economy / research situation. However I've not seen any similar discussions analagous....?
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Jasonian
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Ruins of Jasonia Palace
Sep 1999
time: 00:13
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You gotta love the drones! The only word to describe them has already been said: scary.
Playing drones, seek out Aki or Zak. In one drone game, Aki called me up and we traded about 5 techs, world maps, and signed a pact! That pact has not been broken yet, and we exchange tech still every 15 turns or so.
In one game, the pirates sent a fleet of 10 4-3-4 Impact skimships against my water base cluster. I had my 40% industry bonus, and after a few credits, I have a new fleet of 5 ships to combat the enemies! Granted, they were only 4-3-1 themselves, but I pumped them out 5 every turn, and beat the pirates off!
Need an air force? Spend some cash, and rule the skys the next turn. Worried about Spartans finishing The Command Nexus? Boom, you beat them to it. Scary indeed...
Fighing drones, the key is to hurt their growth. If their cities get too big/too numerous, then you can kiss any neighbors goodbye. Get the probes ready; it's time to free Zak from Free Drone Central!
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Vi Vicdi
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Killeen, TX, USA
Nov 1999
time: 23:13
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Once Domai gets his hands on some tech things get very interesting.
His SE preference facilitates this because he doesn't go after you until you go cybernetic, at which point he's had a chance to build up & acquire some tech.
Getting the early SP's is extremely tough with Domai in the game. He'll start work on 2 of them within 3 turns, and you know if you just started as well you're gonna lose.
Lastly Transcend level (and so I hear the "Unsurpassed" ranking) gives industry bonuses to the AI's, which amplifies Domai's already-big advantage even more.
Scary.
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TigToad
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Glendale, AZ USA
Dec 1999
time: 22:13
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Mis--
I actually didn't do the Morgan challenge, I'm thinking I should now.. because I'm a Morganite thru and thru. I didn't use to be... I played my very very first smac game as the Morgans said, man these guys suck.. and moved on. It wasn't until I was determined to give free-market a go that I tried them again, and again and again. Morganites are now far and away my favorite faction. (especially after you get that nice support giving secret project so you can support 1 unit per base with democracy...Grin). They're tough to figure out, but once you get them going..man they're cool.
Daniel-Tig
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Travathian
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Chandler, AZ, USA
May 1999
time: 21:13
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Well, I've gotten lucky on my latest game. Lal, CC, Hackers and the University all on my continent, which includes the jungle, uranium fields, and the garland crater (with the manifold nexus and geothermal shallows right off shore).
Hackers and CC wouldnt submit so they got squashed, lal and the university submitted, amd are getting techs for me. I have built all SPs except the exchange. Given how good my industry is, I am building cities like crazy, and have all of the base facilities in record time.
So, the debate is, should I give away some of these cities to the University to help them learn tech faster while I just build an army and go teach Miriam who's boss?
The only thing I have going against me is no research (-40%) and too many base facilities and not enough money to afford them due to low efficiency (-40%). But that 30% industry bonus is absolutely disgusting when I can build anything anytime I want.
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Travathian
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Chandler, AZ, USA
May 1999
time: 21:13
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Speaking of Domai, has anyone ever seen his special ability of cities switching sides when they are at unrest? I've never actually seen this in any SMAC game, though I do remember it happening a few times in CivII.
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Travathian
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Chandler, AZ, USA
May 1999
time: 21:13
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What if it riots, and that same turn you probe to cause riots, will it last a second turn? Hmmmmmm, wish I wasnt at work to test this.
Example
Turn 1a Riots occur in AI base
Turn 1b I send in probe on my turn to hopefully increase this, will continuous probe team action increase number of unhappy citizens? Either that or sabotage rec commons and such.
Turn 2 Computer isnt able to make the base happy without removing all workers and starving the base. Hopefully I gain control.
[This message has been edited by Travathian (edited February 10, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Travathian (edited February 10, 2000).]
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Travathian
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Chandler, AZ, USA
May 1999
time: 21:13
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Is there a range limit on this? Or potentially any city which riots for 2 turns becomes yours.
Frankly I think this ability kinda sucks. I'd rather make it when a city is liberated, you dont suffer that penalty with the extra drone for so many years when capturing a base. Think about it, the workers of the city rejoice at being free now! =)
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eisduotres
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This thread now consists of two sub-threads concerning Drones and Morgan (BTW a comparative analysis of these two archtypical builder factions - who really should be archenemies in game storyline terms - from different playstyle perspectives would be interesting).
1) Yes there is no ideological storyline reason why the Drones should be anti-Green. Remember that workers are most exposed to the environmental hazards of industry. They would have a vital practical interest - and not simply an ideological interest as in the case of Gaia and Cha Dawn - in clean, green industry, if only to live longer lives. And labor-power IS an force of nature and, therefore, part of the ecology. It's simply the sentient part of nature - like the fungus (hint, hint).
HOWEVER, as has been amply noted here, the Drones can be powerful faction, which is why they are one of my favorites. Just imagine if they could go Green - they could be practically invulnerble. So I believe this is more a game-balance issue than that of storyline. The problem is, if you banned Free Market, the Drones would only have Planned as a choice.
2) It is the inverse of Morgan - if you banned Green (game story logical), they'd be stuck with only Free Market as a choice. It's really a game limitation.
Speaking of Morgan (Miutso, excuse the misspelling), you should try this faction "Morg" style, i.e., Morgan + Borg. Go Free Market/Wealth ASAP, after building HGP. Just colony pod like crazy, methodically building your bases 3 squares apart in all directions. Your ever-advancing, ever-engulfing base frontier will become your chief offensive weapon!
Go all out to build HGP - this is an early key to the strategy. Note that Wealth is one of the earliest Values SE choices, making this viable early-game. With Morgan/FM/Wealth, each *base square itself* will produce 6-8 energy from the get-go (depends on Child's Creche, etc). Tons of low pop bases = tons of energy. Think of each colony pod as a potential energy borehole!
This largely nullifies some severe limitations specific to Morgan/FM:
1) the low max pop limit - who cares?
2) FM pacifism - much less a factor with low pop bases and HGP, at least until about third bureaucracy/efficiency threshold.
And, if you become bored with ICS/Borg in midgame, you'll have a huge base to build from woth an ideal builder faction!
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:13
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Folks, I just completed my first game as Domai. I had no difficulty at all on acquiring Tech because I kept Domai in FreeMarket the whole game. I still won world conquest the quickest I ever have - 2269.
Just an aside, if one gets Ascetic Virtues, which I believe, gives +1 Police, and if later one builds Brood Pits, which give + 2 Police, one can wage war with FreeMarket without creating drones.
What surpised me, though, is that I had no more trouble with ecology and Fungus than I would if I were running +3 Planet. What I did have a problem with is dealing with mind worms, etc. The -3 Planet really hurts.
All-in-all, though, Domai is great!
Ned
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Misotu
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Leamington Spa, England
Dec 1999
time: 05:13
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Eisduotres, thanks for your post which was interesting. I can see how this strategy would work, so I'll give Morgan another try on this basis.
I'd have thought, though, that Morgan really needs some space and time to expand before getting into a fight? Assuming you're at war in the early game, and in the worst case with a technically more advanced Alien faction, aren't the morale penalties for Wealth crippling? In which case, how would you play the faction when you're forced to mobilise right away? As far as I could tell, both wealth and FM were out of the question and the energy bonus really doesn't help much when you only have a few cities. You can't expand, because you a)can't produce pods rather than military units and b) can't defend a sprawl. I guess I'm still missing something ...
Going back to the Drone/Green thing for a moment, I hear what you say but I think it unrepresentative of the whole picture. Ideologically, workers are anti-green instinctively - as a long-standing member of a traditional workers' party, I was exposed to this big-time :-)
It works like this:
You are correct in saying that workers are aware that certain environmental hazards reduce longevity. This is seen as undesirable and so they tend to be opposed to lax controls on substances like asbestos, for example. This is not, however, concern for the environment but is simply a health and safety *at work* issue.
In any event, these are the extreme cases. Most pollution is lower level and less lethal in the short to medium term, so it barely registers on their radar.
The single, biggest priority of the workers' party is the Right to Work. Their view is that a civilised society provides employment opportunies for all of its members. Without employment, all kinds of social horrors result. If the employment happens to be ecologically-friendly, then great. But if it's a choice between more or fewer jobs, I *know* where their vote will go. And why not? Let the monied middle-classes worry about the owls (LOL Vi) :-)
Clean industry is generally much more expensive than a dirtier version. Higher overheads means more expensive products, means you are less competitive, means fewer sales. Fewer sales means manufacturing output has to be reduced which means fewer jobs and so ... workers will rarely argue for adoption - particularly unilateral adoption - of cleaner industrial practices, because they know it destroys jobs.
It's true that nowadays, there is more interest in cleaner industry, but only on the basis that these standards are enforced across the industry. Realistically, that means international enforcement, which is nigh-on impossible to achieve.
The net result, if green policies are pursued regardless, is that large corporations tend to set up their plants in countries where industry is less regulated. The workers in these countries are glad of the jobs, and don't (surprise, surprise) seem terribly worried about pollution - and so it goes on. Remember Bhopal?
There are exceptions of course, and it's now getting to the point where it's cost-effective to be greener in some instances, but it's a slow process and old prejudices remain.
I don't really see labour power as a force of nature, though it's certainly a poetic concept ;-) Post-industrial revolution, an inherent conflict has existed between industrial and environmental priorities.
Put simplistically, workers don't much like tree huggers, and tree huggers don't really care about workers. So I guess, in the end, workers would rather have Planned (full employment, job stability), then Free Market (many jobs, rotten work environment) then Green (fewer jobs, better working environment). So I would say that the faction profile for the Drones makes perfect sense given the SE choices available.
- Mis
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06-02-2000 09:27
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