03-01-2003 08:46									#1
	CABINET VETO: "Forbidding the assimilation of foreign workers" Put an end to popups!

CABINET VETO #1: Of the Senate Bill Entitled "Senate Bill: Forbidding the assimilation of foreign workers"

CABINET VOTE:

President Arnelos: Yes
Vice President panag: Yes
FAM ManicStarSeed: Yes
DM Spiffor: Yes
SMC E_T: No

By 4-1, this Veto passes. As such, the Senate Bill is hereby vetoed by vote of the cabinet.

Reasons For the Veto of this Bill:

- All improvements within the nation should be complete within the next few turns. We have a large excess of workers compared to the needs of improving conquered German lands and cleaning pollution. As such, since we do not NEED as many workers and the population gained from joining these workers to our cities would beneficial, a large number should be joined (on this issue there is little disagreement).

- It would be more efficient to have a small number of natives do the remaining jobs for workers than a larger number of foreigners because we only serve to deprive ourselves extra population by using the foreigners as workers. The argument that the finances matter is hollow because we currently are at 100% science and our income is STILL over 180 LPT. When ToE and Hoover are completed and we techwhore the next batch of techs to replace the current payments, our income is likely to only further rise. The miniscule expense for having necessary small worker force will be minor in comparison to the income we would deprive ourselves by not joining our massive number of foreign workers to our cities.

- This bill would provide too stringent of a restriction on the Domestic Minister concerning the joining of workers to our cities. The Domestic Minister has expressed that he believes giving him more leeway in when and where to join natives and foreigners (both) might be necessary and that this bill and its opposite might both be unadvisable from the standpoint of pragmatic national interest.

- The bill passed 18-17-5, so it is clearly does not have consensus support in the Senate. It can also clearly be seen from the voting thread that some who voted in favor reconsidered their vote after their votes had already been cast. Given that the Senate is so greatly divided and the Cabinet feels this bill is detrimental to the national interest, we feel this is an appropriate use of the Cabinet's veto power.

-----------------------------------
ADDITIONAL COMMENTS:

ManicStarSeed: "I veto this because it HAMSTRINGS us. Making it an administrative policy is one thing. Making it law is another."

E_T has a dissenting opinion he will provide on his own in this thread. His main reason for concern was that he felt that the Domestic Minister had not presented a plan on the integration of the worker force into our cities with sufficient attention to the details.

	03-01-2003 08:59									#2
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I don't know if I can post here, but...
Even in a game I feel a little bad using slaves. Thanks to the cabinet for the veto.

	03-01-2003 09:03									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Aro I don't know if I can post here, but...

I'm sorry if I didn't make this clear before. EVERYONE IS WELCOME TO POST THEIR OPINIONS IN THIS THREAD. We remain a democracy.

quote: Even in a game I feel a little bad using slaves. Thanks to the cabinet for the veto.

You're welcome.

	03-01-2003 09:06									#4
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Good veto. Once hospitals start to come on-line, we'll need the slaves for our cities. I'm glad we don't have to go through a counter-bill.

	03-01-2003 09:08									#5
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at first I thought this was about the trout slapping

	03-01-2003 10:57									#6
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quote: quoted from my Veto Vote Reasons Re: CABINET VETO: PLEASE VOTE In my own personal games, I like to keep a fair number of both Native & Foreign workers as back up to quickly (i.e. 1 turn) clean up any pollution that might arise. I also look at having to tweek the newly assimilated territories, as I don't like the "checkerboard" that the AI sets up for several Cities. I do send mostly my Native workers back before I start to assimilate any of the foreign contigent, as that helps to bring down my overhead. As with several things, I have learned many things from playing the Demo Game. One is to add the workers right after the City has grown to size 13, to get the most effect from each cities size increase, while the city has to wait for the Granary to refill, before it increases through natural means. With that all said, I would support the DM integrating the workers under the following conditions: 1) he makes either a policy statement (or an Executive Order)about exactly how many of each type of worker, he plans to keep for the above things. 2) his exact plans for the reintegration. This will address several issues with happiness and whether we are at war at the time or not. As I have seen several postings about him (the DM) wanting to reintegrate, but I haven't seen anything as to how, when & where, I can not see with going with this plan right now. My Veto Vote is NO. As the DM has the power to post a New Senate Bill, I think that he should (especially in light of the peoples changes in viewpoints). What he requires, is to make the people look at it from his full point of view & present a concrete plan for the implementation of it. He needs to set & Implement the proper policies that will have more than a simple majority of the population, behind him in that policy/plan. E_T

So, I was the only dissenting vote. As I stated above, I would like to see a plan, by the DM, to the Nation & the RA's as to how he plans to go and Implement this.

Does he plan to add to everywhere, evenly?

How many and of what type of Workers is he planning to keep? Will this take into account any that might be attained through war?

Does he plan to Add them evenly to all cities, or just the ones that get the Hospitals online first?

What does he plan to to do about the issue of Happieness, especially while we are at war & suffering form War Weriness?

These are the things that I would like to see from the DM. I would have presented (to the Senate) these kind of things, if I was still in that Office. I would like to see something from him along this line.

E_T

	03-01-2003 11:16									#7
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hi ,

we should let them join there where they are usefull , places that have food , places that are slow growers , places that can use an entertainer or so , ........

places with a hospital would be nice , but we could also let them join in smaller places and the new citizens could help to produce a hospital there , by the time the construction is finished they shall have joined our nation , .....

, we should take a look at each city

have a nice day

	03-01-2003 11:25									#8
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Although not an unconditionnal supporter of the veto right, I find that we have here an appropriate use of it.

	03-01-2003 11:31									#9
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I've been convinced lately that the arguments presented by the opposing group are correct and I have switched sides to those who support the integration of slaves first. As such, I am glad that this veto passed.
Here's a point proving that joining slaves is more efficient than joining workers that I haven't heard yet: in the worst case, where two slaves that join a city become taxmen because there are no tiles left to work, they will produce two gold per turn while the domestic worker still outside will cost us one gold per turn (a net income of one gold), whereas if we join the domestic worker he'll make one gold per turn serving as a taxman, while the two slaves outside will cost us nothing (a net income of one gold and the same amount of work done). We see that in the worst case scenario, the advantage to joining slaves is equal to the advantage of joining domestic workers. However, in most cases workers that will join cities will have tiles to work, and they'll make more than one gold per turn (in addition to shields and food), and therefore it's economical to join slaves into cities rather than joining workers.

	03-01-2003 12:06									#10
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Wow, is it too late to take my vote back for whom I voted for in this administration? I really disagree with this and think we are not really thinking this through. The economic benefits of these foreign workers (who are unfairly labeled as slaves in my opinion) still seem fairly unclear in my opinion.

It especially suprises me that the DIA, our so called "builders," do not see how great this free labor contributes to building our nation.

[RP!]I say this not only as a citizen and member of the senate, I say this as someone who worked with these workers along the front lines for two full terms.[/RP!]



What I posted in another thread follows:
----------------------
The only reason these foreign workers can be considered slaves is because they are "forced" to work for us and have no other choice. In the EXACT same way, our own workers who came from the cities and fields of our nation are slaves as well then. Should they not be freed as well? If not, now you are placing the value of a foreign citizen over the value of one of our own citizens.

Also, on the hypocrisy front (role playing or not), we fully support granting freedom to our "slaves" yet no one has uttered any sort of dissent that our SMC just killed thousands of innocent german civilians in a city for no good reason? I am not understanding this.

It's not okay to "enslave" our past/present enemies innocent civilian populace, but it is perfectly okay to burn them alive instead?

Perhaps these abolitionist organizations should look at a bigger picture before claiming they are morally and ethically righteous.

	03-01-2003 12:10									#11
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit Wow, is it too late to take my vote back for whom I voted for in this administration? I really disagree with this and think we are not really thinking this through. The economic benefits of these foreign workers (who are unfairly labeled as slaves in my opinion) far outways any real life "ethical" mission some of you feel we should do. It especially suprises me that the DIA, our so called "builders" do not see how great this free labor contributes to building our nation. What I posted in another thread follows: ---------------------- The only reason these foreign workers can be considered slaves is because they are "forced" to work for us and have no other choice. In the EXACT same way, our own workers who came from the cities and fields of our nation are slaves as well then. Should they not be freed as well? If not, now you are placing the value of a foreign citizen over the value of one of our own citizens. Also, on the hypocrisy front (role playing or not), we fully support granting freedom to our "slaves" yet no one has uttered any sort of dissent that our SMC just killed thousands of innocent german civilians in a city for no good reason? I am not understanding this. It's not okay to "enslave" our past/present enemies innocent civilian populace, but it is perfectly okay to burn them alive instead? Perhaps these abolitionist organizations should look at a bigger picture before claiming they are morally and ethically righteous.

hi ,

its because we see the benefits and the speed that we shall be able to build with that we let them join in the first place , .....

we do it because we our nation to grow stronger and bigger then ever before , ......

have a nice day

	03-01-2003 12:16									#12
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , its because we see the benefits and the speed that we shall be able to build with that we let them join in the first place , ..... we do it because we our nation to grow stronger and bigger then ever before , ...... have a nice day

The benefit of speed at this point in time is really a moot point. We've nearly completed every single aspect of public works. This is why we are even considering of getting rid of workers in the first place. 6 foreign workers will do the same amount of work in the same time as 3 citizens. The fact that the 6 foreign workers are free greatly help. We can litterally keep an infinite number of these guys around and it will not cost us ONE SINGLE LYTON. And depending on how many we even have, they can do more work than all our own workers.

However this is a weak argument in the fact that there is really "nothing" to do in the scheme of public works. Would it not be smarter to keep around 6 workers who may potentially be sitting around waiting for work and costing us nothing, or waisting away 3 LPT waiting for our 3 workers to do something.

There really isn't a large enough econimic incenitive to this nor a speed benefit.

	03-01-2003 12:22									#13
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit The benefit of speed at this point in time is really a moot point. We've nearly completed every single aspect of public works. This is why we are even considering of getting rid of workers in the first place. 6 foreign workers will do the same amount of work in the same time as 3 citizens. The fact that the 6 foreign workers are free greatly help. We can litterally keep an infinite number of these guys around and it will not cost us ONE SINGLE LYTON. And depending on how many we even have, they can do more work than all our own workers. However this is a weak argument in the fact that there is really "nothing" to do in the scheme of public works. Would it not be smarter to keep around 6 workers who may potentially be sitting around waiting for work and costing us nothing, or waisting away 3 LPT waiting for our 3 workers to do something. There really isn't a large enough econimic incenitive to this nor a speed benefit.

hi ,

just one Q , are you going to move each one of those workers , ........
and if you would read above you would see Shibers view , but imagine this , each worker that joins a city is a tile that is worked , a tile with food , shields and money , ....
and the city they join shall get more science , ......
a,d on top those workers shall join our civilization and when needed we can still re-activate them , either with keeping the original status or as workers from our civ , ....

and since we have some brains in the government , we are not going to let the remaining workforce sit and do nothing , and even if we would let the sit down for a minute or two , its shall be better then to have no workers at all when polution hits us , .... polution shall be cleaned up faster with a native force then with a foreign force , and it shall be a lot of moves that we can invest in other things , thus therefore speeding up the game (!)

in the end its only a win situation for us , so why leave such an oppurtunity go to waste , .....

have a nice day

	03-01-2003 12:52									#14
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , just one Q , are you going to move each one of those workers , ........ and if you would read above you would see Shibers view , but imagine this , each worker that joins a city is a tile that is worked , a tile with food , shields and money , .... and the city they join shall get more science , ...... a,d on top those workers shall join our civilization and when needed we can still re-activate them , either with keeping the original status or as workers from our civ , .... in the end its only a win situation for us , so why leave such an oppurtunity go to waste , ..... have a nice day

I did read Shiber's post and in fact I will quote here for reference:

quote: I've been convinced lately that the arguments presented by the opposing group are correct and I have switched sides to those who support the integration of slaves first. As such, I am glad that this veto passed. Here's a point proving that joining slaves is more efficient than joining workers that I haven't heard yet: in the worst case, where two slaves that join a city become taxmen because there are no tiles left to work, they will produce two gold per turn while the domestic worker still outside will cost us one gold per turn (a net income of one gold), whereas if we join the domestic worker he'll make one gold per turn serving as a taxman, while the two slaves outside will cost us nothing (a net income of one gold and the same amount of work done). We see that in the worst case scenario, the advantage to joining slaves is equal to the advantage of joining domestic workers. However, in most cases workers that will join cities will have tiles to work, and they'll make more than one gold per turn (in addition to shields and food), and therefore it's economical to join slaves into cities rather than joining workers. Infasis is mine - WHITEBANDIT

Shiber is thinking of the worst possible scenario where all tiles are currently occupied. However this scenario can be renamed the "Long Term View." Because the longer we leave the FREE labor out there and instead intigrate our domestic workers into the cities, the cities will actually be making more money for us especially since the labor does not have to be supported.

I do think the last part of Shiber's post is flawed however. In most cases, yes a worker will probably have a tile they will need to work. In this case, the productivity of the worker (whether a foreign worker or a domestic worker) is EXACTLY the same in the city. So in the long run, if we integrate all our domestic workers into the cities first, we not only acheive exactly the same productivity in our cities, we actually GAIN money because we aren't supporting any workers, Instead they are MAKING us money plus we will still have a large labor pool.

	03-01-2003 13:59									#15
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WB, I can't post a Bill to override this Veto (because it isn't under my perview), but you (or some other Senator) can.

I'm not suggesting that anyone should, atleast not Until the DM has had a little time to come up with a plan.

I await Spiffor's Implemetation Plan.

E_T

	03-01-2003 14:27									#16
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I understand, but at this moment in time I feel that it would be very difficult to get the required 2/3 in order to pass and override this veto. Public opinion seems to be to be in favor of freeing the foreign worker (for all the wrong reasons it seems).

Perhaps a reworded bill that better explains things (such as what Spiffor has previously spoke of) would be better. Someone should also try to start a political movement to counter these so called "Abolitionists."

	03-01-2003 14:49									#17
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E_T : I've just spent 4 hours doing the complete estimation of PW needs for our whole country (see the minister orders thread) which I should have spent doing the extremely urgent university work I have to do for tuesday. You will wait for the implementation plan a little longer.

Edit : I have begun writing on this. You can [url=http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72831"]check this thread[/url]

Last edited by Spiffor on 03-01-2003 at 21:53

	03-01-2003 15:00									#18
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One of the reasons I voted for the veto (and against the bill in the first place) is that it FORBIDS the assimilation of foreign workers. It is simply too restrictive, Maybe if a law sets priorities or limits or target ratios, I would go for it. As written the law is a ticking time bomb waiting to go off when the DM joins two or three foreign workers by accident.

Mss

	03-01-2003 17:32									#19
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The bill forbids the assimilation of foreign workers until all native workers have been assimilated. It says so in the first post of the bill thread. Quoting:

quote: Originally posted by Aggie This senate bill forbids the assimilation of foreign workers into our cities until all native workers have been assimilated. This poll will run for 72 hrs. Aggie

	03-01-2003 19:31									#20
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While I agree that the Bill was restrictive on the DM and there for agree that it should have been vetoed, I personally will not let RP interfer with actual game play.

"Slavery is morally wrong."

ITS A FREAKING GAME!

So what is best in game play, not RP. This is why the razing of Hamburg and Stuttgard was fine. It was in the best interest of the game. Keep RP out of politics!

Plus, look at Greece. They Raze. Do you think they will intergrate German workers into their cities? No. And why wont they? Because they are free!

The entire point of these on going discussions and polls is utterly ridiculous. It shouldn't even be a topic.

	03-01-2003 20:22									#21
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal While I agree that the Bill was restrictive on the DM and there for agree that it should have been vetoed, I personally will not let RP interfer with actual game play. "Slavery is morally wrong." ITS A FREAKING GAME! So what is best in game play, not RP. This is why the razing of Hamburg and Stuttgard was fine. It was in the best interest of the game. Keep RP out of politics! Plus, look at Greece. They Raze. Do you think they will intergrate German workers into their cities? No. And why wont they? Because they are free! The entire point of these on going discussions and polls is utterly ridiculous. It shouldn't even be a topic.

	03-01-2003 20:41									#22
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Pierre liked the attention he was getting from the hoomans of late. What with the bruhaha over Integration with the cities and all, but he just didn't understand what it was all about. After all who would want to give up a cushy railgang job to go back to the cities. But it looked like somethng was going to happen and soon. Pierre was extremely concerned for his personal situation because one of the hoomans was bound and determined to give preference to workers made by the original owning civ of the city in question. This truly scared Pierre, because he could remember Paris. It was "just way too crowded"

	03-01-2003 21:59									#23
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This veto is ILLEGAL.

	03-01-2003 22:03									#24
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After assessing our needs, the basic process will be so :

- We wait for current projects to be completed OR we end the war, before building hospitals (except in places where they are already planned)

- In the meantime, we'll integrate NATIVE workers in the population challenged cities. I didn't count the exact gap between current population in cities and pop 12, but It appears to be far less than 82.

- There will be some time before hospitals are around, except in a handful cities. Since most of our workers won't be able to integrate anyways, it is better to keep slaves during this period

- Once we can demographically boom (hospitals built + no unhappiness problems), slaves will be integrated first. About 30 natives will remain in the fields. These 30 workers will represent 1.1% of our 1305 AB budget.

- I estimate German cities to need about 20-30 native workers during 2 turns to be completely improved. In terms of pollution, 30 workers mean 5 polluted mountains cleaned per turn, and 15 polluted grasslands / plains / deserts cleaned per turn.
I doubt there will be more pollution, but I'll be able to make better estimates in the waiting time before hospitals are around

	03-01-2003 22:33									#25
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Spiffor, the ratio between cleaning polution on mountains compared to grassland/plains/deserts is 3:1, not 2:1.

It's Hills and Forest that takes 2:1 for polution.

As for the number of workers to keep for polution maintenance, I think that if we have enough for 12 poluted grasslands/ plains / deserts = 4 pollued mountains we will have plenty.

	03-01-2003 22:41									#26
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Spiffor, the ratio between cleaning polution on mountains compared to grassland/plains/deserts is 3:1, not 2:1. It's Hills and Forest that takes 2:1 for polution. As for the number of workers to keep for polution maintenance, I think that if we have enough for 12 poluted grasslands/ plains / deserts = 4 pollued mountains we will have plenty.

Yes, maybe 24 native workers would be enough, rather than 30. Again, I think we should register how much pollution we get before integrating the bulk of our workers to have a more accurate estimate.
About my math : where did I make a mistake ?

	03-01-2003 23:25									#27
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Hum, I don't see the math error now, perhaps I looked at the numbers wrong the first time.

We'll need to calculate polution based on what it will be when we have Hospitals + Factories everywhere and the cities have reached max size and in addition consider how large an empire we are growing to.

In my own games, I have more polution caused by population than structures in the industrial era, and even in the modern era, building Mass Transit almost always removes more polution than the Recyling Center.

If we're only planning on Annexing Germany, then I think 24 Workers (or 48 Slaves) will be sufficent. But if we are planning on annexing England or Rome and placing Hospitals and Factories there, we may need 30 workers (or 60 Slaves.)

	03-01-2003 23:58									#28
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I will say that the whole purpose of the bill was to prevent us rushing into integrating foreign workers without a plan. So the bill did its job by forcing this issue. I must however point out that the 72hr limit was exceeded. If it had been a 3-2 vote with arnelos as the deciding vote I would have not worried since he had good reason for the delay. However, 3 other cabinet members were here and didn't act in the required 72hrs. So this veto is invalid. I will not challenge this in court because in my eyes the bill has done its job. But I do worry about the precedent that has been set.
Aggie

	04-01-2003 00:26									#29
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I whole hartedly agree with donegeal. RP has nothing to do with Slavery in this GAME!!!!!!!!!!!

	04-01-2003 03:02									#30
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I want this to go to court.