03-01-2003 09:18									#1
	Thoughts on War with GS Tired of ads?

here our my current thoughts with warr with GS

pre iron working: advantage them
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we would have to surprse them, and beat them before their chariots and golden age beat us

we would at most gain some territory
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right after iron working: advantage us
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our imortals will give us an advantage (as well as the golden age)

we would be driving straight down at them

we would ahve the possibility of complete victory
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before railroad :: advantage us
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our control of the isthmus could prove the decing factor

it will alloe us to concentrate our fleet against their weakness and so we sohuld be able to land troops on their shores

best means of attack would be to have our armies be facing of where our cities are, and than swiftly move a group to attack their more weakly defended coasts (and compared to us their coasts will be more weakly defended because we can conctrate our fleet better than thme

possibility for complete victory
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after railroad: advantage neither
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in order to do well on an attack would need tech or production superiority

our control of the isthmus would support us some, but not enough to allow us to roll them up

this would depend on who was in a better position, basically we need to be ahead of them here (or at least eevn)
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thoughts?


Jon Miller

	03-01-2003 09:26									#2
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Jon - beautiful. my thoughts exactly. I think we have a scary period for the next 30-40 turns, while we finish iron working, hunt down a supply, and start turning out Immortals.

That being said - maybe we don't want to seem that uppitty quite yet. Maybe a bit of yes sir - no sir might work.

Last edited by Beta on 05-01-2003 at 08:22

	03-01-2003 09:28									#3
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currently they have the advantage. Luckily I have yet to see a chariot roll out. When we do see one, we'll have to be real cautious

	03-01-2003 09:28									#4
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Diss and I were just discussing your points in the chat room - thought we would come here and chat in the forum.

	03-01-2003 09:29									#5
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currently 19 turns to iron working. and of course we have to find a source.

	03-01-2003 09:29									#6
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Yes - and some horsemen would be useful to counter them. But asking for both horses and iron is like asking for too much.

	03-01-2003 09:31									#7
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So - question - do we want to play quasi-meek for the next bit.

	03-01-2003 09:31									#8
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and we are 2 techs away from it.

	03-01-2003 09:32									#9
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But continue our exploring. We will need to know where their cities are.

	03-01-2003 09:32									#10
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just play non-commital on those issues we don't agree to. I don't want to come out and demand the land that is rightfully ours. Just say we can't commit until we find out more about our continent.

	03-01-2003 09:34									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident and we are 2 techs away from it.

True enough. It will have to be iron working which does it for us.

But then waging war when our highest defensive unit is a 2, against hordes of chariots, is still going to be risky business. We will have to be agressive. Get in and take out the cities quickly.

	03-01-2003 09:36									#12
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I'm going to send a pacifier note to ManicSS now, and the comprise a note for your review. I will post it in the FA thread.

	03-01-2003 09:36									#13
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but we have no offensive units right now!

no archers, no horsies. We only have units with attack of 1. Those might be enough to attack the chariots if they are in open fields. Unit placement will be critical in that situation.

	03-01-2003 09:41									#14
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I think we should back down now, but still be as noncomital as possible

also, we need to make sure we have the possibility of access to the souther mountains in case we don't have iron in the northern ones

we really will have to be meak if there is no iron to be found

Jon Miuller

	03-01-2003 09:46									#15
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I don't want to think about that possibility

	03-01-2003 09:51									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident but we have no offensive units right now! no archers, no horsies. We only have units with attack of 1. Those might be enough to attack the chariots if they are in open fields. Unit placement will be critical in that situation.

I was looking ahead to a period when we have Immortals. A stack of 4-2's with some 1-2 spearmen, being attacked by a stack of chariots. That's what I had in mind.

	03-01-2003 10:09									#17
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There is one thing I miscalculated. I thought we had already researched one tech already. But I gesss not. Did we start with Bronze Working? I think so. And we got Cer. Burial from a goody hut.

What was our research rate at the start of the game?

Because if we still our researching our first tech then maybe Egypte (GS) hasn't researched the wheel yet. I was thinking they had researched it. This buys us some time.

Although they could have got the wheel from a goody hut. Is that a normal tech to get from a goody hut? I usually get peaceful techs from goody huts.

	03-01-2003 10:38									#18
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Yes - it is our first tech - so their's too unless they have traded. And yup, I think it is usually pottery and c.burial. Occasionally the wheel - if I recall. There may not have been too many goody huts for them either.

	03-01-2003 10:42									#19
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thereis a chace the had not learned the wheel

however, remember that the wheel is learned faster than iron working (look it up in the everything thread)

Jon Miller

	03-01-2003 15:20									#20
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What about warfare tactics of slow vs fast units?

	03-01-2003 20:44									#21
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Eli - tell us more.

For me that has usually involved a good road system internal to my lands (this helps counter the chariots or horsemen's move allowance), good defensive sites (cities, hills, mountains, forts) and a hadful of horsemen of my own to cut down the stragglers. I agree, it can be done.

It is harder on their turf, when you don't get the road bonus. And that's what I was envisioning when I was talking about warring with GS. We go in with Immortals and Spearmen. they have chariots which will be able to use their road network, zip down, take a shot at us (2 vs 2), then pull back when they get to one HP.

We would have to counter that by moving in overwhelming force into hills or mountains next to their cities, and by (fingers crossed here) having horsemen of our own to prune out the weakened chariots.

	03-01-2003 21:55									#22
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I say we remain non-comital for the time being while we try to get some sort of defensive/offensive force in place.

	04-01-2003 03:13									#23
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I was going over some old threads and cam across this post from earlier. I think we are thinking along the same lines, jon.

"Based on my recent play with the Persians, which I have to admit, has been driven by our choice of civ, I have come to a conclusion which I would like to discuss. Eli and Flash clearly had a prefernce for this civ, and may have more experience with them, so I would be keen to hear their views.

My conclusion is simple - you get Immortals, and you get them early. Way before anyone has anything comparable. The best early defensive units are the hoplites - and unless Markos is playing the Greeks as a sleeper civ somewhere (and I'm sure word would have gotten out) we should only be facing units with a max defensive rating of 2 in the early game.

So - we get Immortals, and we get them early. So - the first civ we meet - we take them out. We have an enormous early game military advantage. We are clearly on an island-archipelago type geography - which from my experience has meant two things - two civs which meet vie for possession of land on narrow strips of geography - and secondly - other civs will have a hard time coming to an allies help in the early game.

Yes - it kicks in an early GA, but we will only have this advantage in the early game - we should take - well - advantage of it. I recommend rolling back the first civ we meet - then consolidating and see where we stand."

	04-01-2003 07:26									#24
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from the latest screenshot i got. If they put a city on that choke point right there. Really they could easily block you in that litttle penislua. Better to go to war with immortals. Good to see your starting on road down there. Anyway i might not have the latest screenshot its the 3000bc

	04-01-2003 15:04									#25
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They wont put a city in the chokepoint, they're too far away for that.

	06-01-2003 10:10									#26
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Concerning slow vs fast units :
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=72848

If you want to post there, make no mention why we need it.

	10-01-2003 21:43									#27
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I thought this would be the best place to post some recent ideas/musings I have had regarding GS, tech trades, and the future.

They do not have bronze working. It will take them some time to research it. Not sure how long. They have met us - we have it - and I know that by itself decreases the beeker time somewhat. I have never seen the formula. (There was that strategy thread on science and the foour turn cap, but I can't find it.)

So, they don't have spearmen right now. They say they have the wheel. They may have picked that up from a goody hut, and researched pottery. I can't see how they would have researched it that quickly. They are the all-star team, but the same game rules and parameters apply to all. Then again - if you pumped out two workers early, and used them to do city improvements, and the extra commerce which comes with roads on worked tiles, they may have done it. Which brings us to our second worker and terrain improvements - er - another discussion.

So, they will have chariots soon. As I said elsewhere, they probably don't want to have to use them right away, given the waste involved with an early GA.

We have spearmen. In 13 turns we will have iron working. GS will still likely be working on bronze working. We will likely find iron, and then have to connect it, and start producing immortals. By that time, GS will likely be able to produce some spearmen, but not a lot.

This is all a re-hash of sorts of the stuff in jon's earlier note and other stuff we have discussed.

A couple of other points - there are not too many luxuries around. Let's assume the same is true for GS, and it would appear to be. We are going to have to keep the population happy after we get out of the settler production stage and cities start to grow. That will involve temples. GS is religious - they can build them faster than we can.

So - if we do the tech trade - we even out the military advantage that we will enjoy now and for the next 40 or so turns if we don't do the trade. Then during the temple build period the advantage will go to them.

The more I think about it, the more reluctant I become to do this trade. I don't think we can keep up with GS in a peace race. They are religious, and I am ussuming they got the better deal on geography than we did. They may even have other luxuries around or south of thei cities.

So, if we can't win a peace race, then it must be war, and that would imply no trades.

The other consideration is our ability to broker tech deals with Lux. And yes - if we could trade with GS, it will allow us to trade that tech for something else with Lux. But we don't know what they have right now. They may not have much to offer. And we still get the advantage of dealing with Lux whether it is war or peace with GS.

That being said - I am humbly suggesting (and changing my mind here) that we say no to the trade. I can say something about it has to be unanimous, and that a small minority balked at the deal. And that we gear up as soon as possible for an advance south with spearmen and immortals.

One last consideration. If we do the trade, they can produce spearmen. If we do end up having to get aggressive to get iron in the middle mountains, and we will know in 13 turns, it would be nice if the best defensive unit we faced was a 1, and not spearmen.

This is a tough call. Thoughts?????

Last edited by Beta on 10-01-2003 at 22:18

	11-01-2003 00:24									#28
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byu the time we have immortals out, they will already have bronze working

as such, the trade does not hurt us very much (the next one might, but I actually think not because ironworking is not that good for nonUU civs)

Jon miller

	11-01-2003 00:50									#29
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yes - but just. This should at least hold them back from having hordes of spearmen if and when we invade.

	11-01-2003 01:26									#30
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A thought I had on a more strategic level.

We should draw them to an early fight and cause an early golden age. If we survive(), it will help us in the long run.