16-11-2000 10:22									#1
	SP handicaps Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I was just wondering as to any common handicaps that players use to make it harder to win in single player. Looking through the old threads I saw a "no formers" challenge for example. This would of course be a challenge that would almost require an ICS style. I am curious as to other handicaps one can self impose. A couple that come to mind immediately

1. No atrocities (many people play this way anyway)
2. No gassing aliens
3. No mind control bases and/or units (I am starting to play with this "rule" now)
4. No planes or choppers of any kind (ouch)
5. No drop units of any kind.
6. Must gift all tech to everyone.
7. Play OCC

In every case the AI is allowed to do what it wants but the human is limited.


I am hoping that with the right balance of limits the situation can be such that its worthwhile to play on into later stages of the game. As it stands, once one gets D:AP the xjets and then x-choppers wipe the board. My current game is a good example. The Usurpers had one huge continent (wiped out 3 AI) while my peacekeepers and 2 submissives have the other. We each had 30+ cities (my subs another 15). Despite the fact that the Usurpers also have airpower, 20 years later the game is essentially over. The Usurpers have only 10 cities left and 6 of them are empty shells that would be gassed out of existence whenever they become garrisoned.

Looking back I thought about how it would have been much more of a challenge if I couldn't use an airforce. I think I will go back to an old save and try it out (I guess I'll have to build a navy). Without an airforce and fighting against one I might have to consider transcending. All I know is that it should be more interesting with the obvious victory method being foreclosed.


So if you have some other limits or "rules" that make the game harder to win please post them. I want to get better at this game but the AI itself provides little incentive when the same strategies work over and over again. Hopefully sometime soon I can find the time for MP where getting my ass kicked repeatedly will force me out of my bad habits.


cbn

	16-11-2000 10:30									#2
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Hi cbn, I think you could add playing double-blind research to your list (ie undirected research *and* you don't even set exp/build/conq/disc priorities.)

This tends to help the AI, because it makes human player beelines impossible to follow ...

	16-11-2000 00:43									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

Has anyone ever tried no facilities?

Just a thought....

	16-11-2000 01:49									#4
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Thanks Misotu -- double blind-- I think I'll try that next game-- could be a killer to be unable to beeline to crawlers -- or a worse killer to have my 1-1-1 scouts facing off with AI impact weapons

Mark13 - No facilities sounds like an interesting challenge as well. My guess is that it can be done(and probably already has been done)using lots of formers and literally tons and tons of crawlers -- or perhaps a rover rush or other momentum approach. But it would be tough and would definitely involve devising some new strategies ( perhaps a new appreciation for specialist cities -- hmmm 0 inefficiency you say)

I guess we could borrow any number of challenges from the CIV2 world as well.

cbn

	16-11-2000 02:44									#5
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Best challenge ever completed that I knew of was by Zsozso (I think). He completed conquest with no bases being formed.

Zso was defintiely the king of challenges between fastest transcend record and that, one too bad he's no longer haunting the boards or playing.

Og

	16-11-2000 04:49									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Indeed, Zsozso's presence was a great thing for this forum, as well as Vel's.

Wish these two would come back...

Aredhran

	16-11-2000 07:49									#7
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As the person who proposed the no-bases challenge (which I called the Nomad challenge), let me say that I was mighty impressed when zsozso did it. It was zsozso wasn't it? I have a very poor memory. All I remember is that I proposed it, but never did it myself. To do it successfully, you have to play as Deirdre, so you can build a mindworm army. I never got past MY 2140.

And yes, there has been a zero facilities challenge, as well as a zero-facilities-one-city challenge, referred to generally as ZFOCC, a confusing anagram if you've never encountered it before.

But back on-topic, here's my two cents: self-limit your expansion. This also makes the game much more fun, because it limits micromanagement. I generally stop at ten bases. This can make the game much more challenging. For example, my current SP game is as the Usurpers. In general, people here eschew playing the Progenitors because they're so unbalanced. But I'm way behind the Cult of Planet in this game, because I've been trying to hold a really large territory with only ten bases, so I'm very spread out and vulnerable. It's fun.

If I conquer an opponent's bases, I have to either destroy them or give them back in a couple turns. I keep strictly to my ten-base limit. I actually wish there was a way to hard-code this kind of option into the game, like dictate a base limit for all factions, to prevent ICS, but oh well. It makes things more fun when you have to do the best you can with what you have.

Double-blind tech sounds like a very challenging way to play, too, but becoming familiar with the tech tree is essential if you want to play MP, so I don't recommend it until you feel confident you know your way around.

	21-11-2000 17:00									#8
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Well I usually play double blind anyway and never commit atrocities, unless I am really having problems, which is very rare...the idea of no airpower sounds unpleasant though, although a damn good challenge...

	28-11-2000 14:58									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

Some time ago, I had an interesting game with a self made faction, which should have very slow growth.
Accidently, I gave her -3 growth (no growth) instead of -2 (very slow growth).

Surprisingly, it was possible to play this faction (I played transcendend)!
I had only two bases with one inhabitant each for more than the first hundred turns, until I could push growth up by social engeneering. Of course, this bases could only support few units and facilities and lay far behind in tech.
But all AI factions except Cha treated me nice, because I was no danger for them, and I made pact the Sven and Aki.

It was impossible to me to win the game, but I survived.

	01-12-2000 10:49									#10
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I decided to try my first double-blind research game and man is it an effective handicap. I drew Deidre as my (random) faction and ended up on a narrow landmass with 3 narrow arms (with lots of ocean specials) and connected to the south pole. The Manifold nexus was there so i thought with +2 Planet I would do a worm rush on someone. Also the techs for impact and synthmetal were among the first I got so a military approach was the way to go. But I was alone and there was little local fungus so there were few worms and no one to rush.

Its now 2160 and I am fifth on the power bar. I didn't meet anyone until the 2150s when my explorers (after trekking across the south pole) finally found another attached landmass and the Spartans. The spartans are within about a dozen squares across the ocean BUT it was 43 squares by the land route I have to follow to get to them. The Spartans are not at all hospitable and immediately declared vendetta. I also just met a Usurper who came knocking with a missle skimship and had to be bribed to go away. So I am 60 years in and haven't managed to probe anyone or even trade a tech. I am now praying for boats.


I believe the start position combined with double blind and the less than useful techs received so far will make for a challenging game. Usually when alone on a landmass my approach is to go builder and work to lift restrictions and go crawlering. Unfortunately the tech lotto has instead provided mainly early military techs with no one anywhere near by land to attack. While the bases i have are in pretty good shape (forests everywhere and all available facilities except the holo theatres which are being held until needed) I feel crippled tech-wise. This is the first game in a long while where it looks like I could even lose. I love it.

The current strategy is to contine expansion (although I am out of land on this continent) and build a ton of probes to go tech hunting. I am sending a few the polar circle route but am keeping the bulk at
home for use whenever I can build a boat. probe foils will also be built in abundance. The only thing is that my other self -handicap cuts in-- Subversion (mind control) of enemy cities or units is not permitted.


Double Blind is frustrating (particularly in this case when Doctrine Flexibility is so crucial if i want to get off this dang little island) but i confess that I like it. A game that isn't a foregone conclusion (in SP)

cbn