04-01-2003 03:10									#1
	court case: killing the veto Tired of ads?

I want to kill the veto for the following reason:

I will say that the whole purpose of the bill was to prevent us rushing into integrating foreign workers without a plan. So the bill did its job by forcing this issue. I must however point out that the 72hr limit was exceeded. If it had been a 3-2 vote with arnelos as the deciding vote I would have not worried since he had good reason for the delay. However, 3 other cabinet members were here and didn't act in the required 72hrs. So this veto is invalid. I will not challenge this in court because in my eyes the bill has done its job. But I do worry about the precedent that has been set.
Aggie

	04-01-2003 04:13									#2
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MJW is Aggie?

Those of us in The Court need you to clarify. Why are you posting a thread called "court case" when you say in that thread,

quote: I will not challenge this in court because in my eyes the bill has done its job. But I do worry about the precedent that has been set.

--Togas

	04-01-2003 04:25									#3
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I beleive he was using Aggie's quotation from another thread as his justification. Frankly, I'm confused as to why he included that particular sentence. Probably misread it.

	04-01-2003 04:53									#4
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I am not MJW, just to avoid confusion.
Aggie

	04-01-2003 04:56									#5
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No, MJW is you BWAHAHAHAHA

	04-01-2003 05:00									#6
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My stomach is turning and I am gonna puke.

This is ALL because of 5 stinking hours. My head gets so turned around with the various time zones, it is not right that this is really happening. If this really goes down where is the justice? Five stinking hours late in a game of fun. It is sad.

Let me ask the COURT one question. The Senate can REPEAL the law can it not?

If, so and it pleases the court I request that the court delays any action untill the senate has a chance to repeal it or replace it with a more acceptable bill.

SENATORS: Please reconsider the bill and PASS anotherone more approprate to the needs of the nation. Do it soon. Save the court and our nation of this. Many of you see the errors of the bill and KNOW it can be better. Make it so.

Spiffor: It is within your jurisdiction to sponsor a bill regarding this. If you want, you can repeal it or change it.

Havinfg said my peace, I leave it to the Senate and the DM. I have FAM stuff to attend to.

Mss

	04-01-2003 05:34									#7
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ManicStarSeed - whether or not the bill is good or bad is of no consequence in this case, as it is a matter of opinion. The issue at hand is whether the executive veto of the bill was LEGAL, not whether it was actually the right thing in the game.

Btw, Spiffor does NOT have the right to unilaterally repeal or change the bill.

	04-01-2003 06:14									#8
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MSS, let me explain my reason for the bill in the first place. There had been some mention of putting foreign citizens into howitzerville by the DM in response to a poll he believed indicated that most people wanted to release "guest workers" now. What the results of the poll showed was that people wanted to release them after work is done, and I agree with this part. So I proposed the bill to prevent this and believed that the dm would make up a formal plan which he has done. One item I would like to see in a repeal bill is a requirement that we DON't concentrate workers of an existing nation in a city since that could lead to culture flips. Like I said I won't challenge the veto of this bill, but I also worry about the precedent that we are setting by ignoring the 72hr rule. For example, if next time, a bill is passed and it gets vetoed at 5 days they can always look back and say"well it worked last time so we can get away with waiting this long to veto". I would like to see a new bill, but lets not rush a repeal bill just to prevent the veto from being overturned.
Aggie

	04-01-2003 06:33									#9
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Justices,

If this is indeed going to a Court case, I suppose you need someone to offer the case for the Cabinet. With jdjdjd's nomination to the Court, I suppose that we'll need to find another. My guess is that Spiffor would do well, but I'm not sure if he's up to it.

Let me know if you indeed need that and we can work something out.

	04-01-2003 06:57									#10
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Aggie, I agree with you regarding precedent. I just want to see the problem solved by the Senate, not the Court. You had the right idea don't push it, let the issue be resolved in time and let people get a plan together.

Skywalker, Spiffor as DM as the POWER to sponsor a senate bill which directly affects his duties as DM and that bill CAN repeal another law. As for the illegality of the veto, it is not illeagal, just ineffective as if it (the veto) never happened.

There is NO reason for a court case as NO law was violated, yet. If the DM or Prez assimilated foreign workers, then the law would be violated and there is a case. THERE IS NO CASE HERE. Just an argument of wheather the law will (note... will) stand up in court if it is violated. I can pretty much assure you that it will.

You are RIGHT, the veto is INVALID, TOO LATE and MEANINGLESS. The law stands as the VETO NEVER HAPPENED. Are you asking the Court for a ruling on it, go for it. There is NO real counter argument that can be made.

Again if the pres or DM want to push the issue, they will assimilate some foreign workers this next turn chat and BREAK THE LAW. Then there will be a case. Untill then we have an ambigous situation. There have been no laws or rules broken, just a missed deadline and some ensuing confusion.

The court can rule on the veto, but it seems simple...IT NEVER HAPPENED, deadline missed, the law stands. My suggestion is let the senate fix the standing law.

Nuff said

Mss

PS. It seams that I am shouting, but I am just empahsizing some points.

Have fun...

	04-01-2003 07:00									#11
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Excellent point MSS.
Aggie

	04-01-2003 07:01									#12
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I said Spiffor cannot UNILATERALLY repeal or change it. Of course he can support another bill that does so, but it's the SENATE that votes on the bill, and it's just like any other bill.

The veto WAS illegal because it happened after the time limit for a veto had expired.

PS: I use caps for the same thing too It's faster than typing .

	04-01-2003 07:04									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Justices, If this is indeed going to a Court case, I suppose you need someone to offer the case for the Cabinet. With jdjdjd's nomination to the Court, I suppose that we'll need to find another. My guess is that Spiffor would do well, but I'm not sure if he's up to it. Let me know if you indeed need that and we can work something out.

I am willing to present the case for the Cabinet should they desire external representation, though I doubt they need or desire any help in that area .

-- adaMada

	04-01-2003 07:18									#14
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker I said Spiffor cannot UNILATERALLY repeal or change it. Of course he can support another bill that does so, but it's the SENATE that votes on the bill, and it's just like any other bill.

I just do not know where you got the unilateral idea from. I said that he could sponsor a bill.... I think you took the last part out of that context.

quote: Originally posted by skywalker The veto WAS illegal because it happened after the time limit for a veto had expired.

No it was not..
the cabinet BROKE NO LAWS, nothing illegal was done, we did not disobey a court order, we did not overstep costitutional powers, no workers were assimilated- - NOTHING illegal happened. Our VETO just becam empty words upon the sand. The court will not uphold the VETO, that is it. We missed a deadline.

When you say illegal, what are you getting at, are you looking for impeachment? censure? That is where illegal goes. Are you saying that by missing the deadline We did something illegal? Are you crying for justice? For what wrong?

Nothing illegal has happened, yet.

Mss

	04-01-2003 07:22									#15
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The veto was illegal, because it was not made within the time constraints. I'm asking for it to be declared null and void.

	04-01-2003 07:23									#16
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Point of this whole thing is not legal or illegal, it is about valid or invalid.

I agree it is invalid and the veto is empty.

No laws have been broken. No one oversteped their position. The will of the senate has been followed (so far).

Stop crying for blood as the word Illegal implys.

Mss

	04-01-2003 08:28									#17
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As the only dissenting Vote in the Veto, I do NOT beleave that the Veto should be declared Illegal. Because the President was not present for 2 days BECAUSE OF REAL LIFE ISSUES and was only 5 hours late, should not become an issue.

IF the case had been where he had been present AND/OR had waited one more day to get the Veto votes, then yes, I would have to say that this would have to be ruled as Null & Void. But as this isn't the case here, then I say that we accept the Veto and go on from there.

E_T

	04-01-2003 08:41									#18
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I would like to note that the veto does indeed stand until some time where the court decides to rule against it. Thus, any slaves may be incorporated into cities until the point where the veto is declared void. I expect that for the next 2 or so turnchats the domestic minister can do whatever he wants with slaves without being restricted by this (outrageous) law.

Anyway, I would suggest that in the future a PM should be sent to the President each time a bill is passed, and when he reads it the clock starts ticking. Does anyone else think this is a good idea?

	04-01-2003 08:45									#19
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E_T it does not say RL issues in that part of the new con.

Last edited by MJW on 05-01-2003 at 04:12

	04-01-2003 08:50									#20
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The court should do that ASAP...

	04-01-2003 12:20									#21
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Some reactions after reading this thread :

1) I cannot represent the government on this case. I have too much work in real life these times, and I consider my DM duties are too heavy already. Also, I really have trouble with all the procedural aspect of a court case, it is really not my forte.

2) I don't understand all the legal language here. What exactly does it mean when MSS says that "(I) should sponsor another bill" ?

3) Judging is not applying the law blindly, regardless of the situation (at least IMO), and the sad reasons why Arnelos was absent for 2 days more that explains why the veto was 5 hours late.

4) Should this veto be considered null anyways (which would really prove how bureaucratic this Demogame is), I will sponsor anyone who proposes a bill cancelling Aggie's one. Since most people agree with the veto, I suppose such a cancelling will have a clear majority. It will only serve the purpose of cluttering the game.

5) When my worker implementation plan is ready, I may put it to vote (depending on whether people express their will to vote on the plan or not). In this case, I will add a clause that says the worker implementation can change without warning, should the circumstances dictate it.

	04-01-2003 15:02									#22
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As a representative of The Court, we all just need to know who the Plaintiff (complaining party) is, what the official complaint is, what law was allegedly violated, who the defendant(s) would be, and if you will be represented by any other party.

I think MJW is the plaintiff, but it seems that Aggie, MSS, and Skywalker all have spoken up, claiming that the Veto was illegally executed due to a violation of the 72 hour rule.

I can pretty much infer most of these things from the thread, but it's more proper to have them clearly stated so that there can be no debate. Would someone please, just for the sake of procedure, stand forward as the Plaintiff and take up this case by answering the questions above? We can then take your complaint, start an official case thread, notify the defense to submit their position, pick a cheif justice, and begin working on this case.

Also note, if there is sufficient interest, we will listen to a motion to enjoin this proceeding so that the Senate may redraft the bill in question ... however, those in favor/against should be prepared to argue it to us.

--Judge Togas

p.s. Maybe jdjdjd will be confirmed by the time this thing get's started ... IF it gets started.

	04-01-2003 19:31									#23
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I will be the plaintiff, unless someone else really wants to

I argue against delaying the case to allow the Senate to make a new bill. It can already make a new bill. Until it does so, however, I contend that the veto was illegal and so the original law should stand!

	04-01-2003 21:52									#24
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skywalker, are you represented by another party?
what law do you think was broken?
who will be the defendant?

[I contend that the veto was illegal and so the original law should stand!]

Is that your official complaint?

	04-01-2003 22:31									#25
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Yes, that is.

I'm not represented by someone else.

I think that the law (in the constitution) requiring that all cabinet vetoes happen withing 72 hours of the timeout of the law they're vetoing.

The defendent is the veto itself, represented by a member of the cabinet (or whomever they choose to represent it), as I am requesting that the veto be declared null and void (basically, it doesn't do anything).

	04-01-2003 22:52									#26
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Thank you.

	04-01-2003 23:16									#27
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hi ,

there should be law so that no stupid proposals concerning courtcases can be brought forward , ..........






have a nice day in court

	04-01-2003 23:22									#28
	Re: court case: killing the veto Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by MJW I want to kill the veto for the following reason: I will say that the whole purpose of the bill was to prevent us rushing into integrating foreign workers without a plan. So the bill did its job by forcing this issue. I must however point out that the 72hr limit was exceeded. If it had been a 3-2 vote with arnelos as the deciding vote I would have not worried since he had good reason for the delay. However, 3 other cabinet members were here and didn't act in the required 72hrs. So this veto is invalid. I will not challenge this in court because in my eyes the bill has done its job. But I do worry about the precedent that has been set. Aggie

hi ,

why is there a second thread about the subject being made , ..... at 03/01/03 17.57 skywalker put up a thread , only one thread about the subject , so this thread should be closed , ....

have a nice day

	05-01-2003 03:12									#29
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Spiffor:

All I am saying is that I really does not matter if the veto stands or not. Assume it dosen't, it is still within your power (as DM) to sponsor (draft and present) a bill regarding this issue to the senate. That could include repealing the law, modifying it or scraping it and replace it with something different. Granted, it will be a bill to be voted upon by the senate, it is just one of the several solutions to this dilemma. I am NOT saying you really should do it, just you can.

Togas:
I do not think that the veto should be nullified. It was a few hours during extenuating circumstances. BUT as the letter of the law was not followed, there is a (not so, in my opinion) reasonable case to invalidate the veto.

Nothing illegal happened. The word Illegal should be struck from the record. INVALID/VALID should be the focus.

quote: Also note, if there is sufficient interest, we will listen to a motion to enjoin this proceeding so that the Senate may redraft the bill in question ... however, those in favor/against should be prepared to argue it to us.

I think that I move for this as....

In short there are two options;

1- Let the Veto stand, the bill never became law, the senate needs to draft something doifferent or summon a 2/3s majority to override. Senate action is required.

2- Let the Veto fail, the bill becomes law, nothiong ilegal has been done yet. There are a few in the senat who are currently looking at a new bill replacing/revising the existing one in question. Senate action is required.

I am moving to suspend hearing untill the will of the senate is known. Realize that the senate did not bring this case up, only a few senetors, who can not speak for all the senate.

Let the senate take the veto as a sign of executive displeasure with the bill in question and let them fix it. I ask for 7 days to allow the senate to resolve this issue before starting a hearing regarding a veto for a bill that will not exist in two weeks.

I am trying to save court resources. Why hear a case when the situation has the potential of changeing halfway through the process? Give it a week, see what we have and then move on.

It seems simple... a deadline is a deadline. I am not certain that the court will allow a grace peroid that is not stated in the constitution. Let the senate move forward as if the veto is invalid. The next few actions of the senate will help the court decide on the proper course of action.

Mss

	05-01-2003 04:06									#30
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It was challged for a different reason.... read the thread panag!