30-11-2000 00:23									#1
	One big research base vs several smaller Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Hi everyone. I know this topic has already been addressed previously to some extent, but I wanted to bring it up again to see if anyone had any new ideas. In the past I've always concentrated my efforts on building one big research base with all the SP's (ME,SC,TOE), and lots of energy crawlers. I'm now wondering if splitting the SP's, especially SC and TOE, might be the way to go.

In my most recent game, I started having the problem of losing large amounts of research late in the game because my base was approximately 50% of my total research, and I believe any additional research from THE SAME BASE is lost after completing a tech. For example, I had 11k research accumulated, the tech cost 13.5k, and I was running 18.5k per turn. "Cool!" I say, "I get two techs next turn".

But the problem was, my science base was generating about 8.5k of my total research. It's actually my third base...my original capital was generating about 800 RP's, and then a captured base with only about 15 RP's. So the problem is, if I don't go over the top with my first two bases, I use my third base, and waste about 7.5k of research.

I first tried everything I could think of to raise my first base up...fiddling with SE settings, redirecting crawlers, etc, but it was impossible. I ended up reducing my research % way down to avoid wasting all those points, but I had to wait an extra turn to get the second tech (Threshold of Transcendance).

The pros and cons as I see it are:

Pros for single research base:
- No efficiency loss at second base.
- Less crawlers needed to build up energy
- Can take advantage of ME (4X factor using SC and TOE)
- By the time you start losing RP's, too late in the game to matter (Most significant IMO).

Pros for multiple research bases:
- If close to HQ or using specialist, efficiency loss is small.
- Don't have to redirect crawlers to a single base.
- Sometimes more convenient to build SP's at different locations.
- If you lose one base to PB or conquest, less damaging to your empire.
- Less chance of wasting RP's after completing a tech.

Does anyone have any idea's or additional pros or cons? Sorry for writing a book here but I tend to be a bit verbose.


[This message has been edited by hellrazor (edited November 29, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by hellrazor (edited November 29, 2000).]

	30-11-2000 00:52									#2
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You're exactly right 'bout the loss of research....any RP's above and beyond what you need for your next tech generated from a given base are not counted at all....you simply lose those points. For this reason alone, it's always a good plan not to rely too heaivily on any one base. Also, from a purely strategic standpoint, you really don't wanna do that....lose the base for any reason, and you're really fried. (and in MP games, this MUST be factored into your thinking....if you've been infiltrated, you can rely on the fact that your opponents are monitoring all your bases, and if they see you building up a "super base" you can be sure that plans are in the works to take it from you).

True, by using multiple bases, you DO lose a bit to inefficiency, but that loss is nothing compared to the massive hit you take in the mid-to late game every time you get a new tech and watch a third (or more) of your big base's research points go down the tubes....

-=Vel=-
[This message has been edited by Velociryx (edited November 29, 2000).]

	30-11-2000 00:56									#3
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Yeah, I think the pros heavily outweigh the cons with multiple resrach bases. You can stand to lose a *lot* of research points that way - when I am playing OCC it really annoys me.
Tech cost = 13,000
Tech per turn = 27,000-odd
1 tech per turn. Aaaargghhhh!!!!

	30-11-2000 01:20									#4
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The way you play the game will have a lot to do with your decision to go with one super science base or several.

If you are not out to Transcend, I'd be more inclined to go with one science base. If you are a player that gets way above 1 tech a turn in the super science base toward the end, multiple cities is the way to go. The size of the world will also have a huge impact on your research speed. If you are in a MP game you may find a single base with the SuperCollider and the ToE may attract some PBs. If you play double blind, you may find that less control over getting early key techs means less ability in the endgame to achieve multiple techs per turn. Your faction's research ability will have an impact on your decision as will the terrain's energy potential in the core of your empire.

Sometimes you are in a rush to build that key SP on account of competition from somebody else and you are simply unable to build in the city you want.

I typically build several energy parks and science cities. My normal strategy in Transcend level SP double blind games on normal sized worlds is to start out with one super science base and several lesser science bases and see how things are going. If it looks like I am liable to go past the one tech in the super science city I will build the ToE somewhere else.

My level of play is only good enough for on average two techs per turn just prior to reaching the Threshold to Transcendance. On a bad game I won't exceed one tech a turn in the super science city. On a rare super good game I can hit three techs a turn.

A final word of warning: on two occasions my super science base was wiped out by an asteriod strike.

	30-11-2000 01:22									#5
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VELOCIRYX! Welcome back! I hope this means you are coming out of retirement.

	30-11-2000 01:55									#6
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This post is verbose!? Hardly....

I am a big avocat of the Capital Research Base located on the shore. My reasons are as follows.

- The SP's SC and TOE multiply each other so there is an added boost to your research when in the same base. As you stated when combined with the ME.... Wow!
- Aquafarms and Tidal Harnesses can generate a nice bounty of resources to be used by librarians or the like, and the shore provides opportunities to dig Bore Holes to keep production up, while leaving the rest of your bases property to be devoted to generating food.
- With a port, not only can you send crawlers to the peaks, but they can also seek out ocean energy specials.
- Sea crawlers can also be used as a shield around an island to reduce the treat of enemy landings and PBs
- You can elect to have a more specialized empire and therefore reduce your maintenance cost somewhat by doing different things in different bases. I often have a far away border base cranking out military units after training them in the punishment sphere while running a free market.

Now having a SSC does require a micro manager. Every ten turns or after you make a SE change, you should determine what your best tech/turn can be while maintaining your basic energy needs. Once you have that target number, then every turn you need to play with your allocations and try and have the highest income and keep your tech rate the same. When you have only 1 turn to go in researching a tech, you can (if you wish) determine which base will put you over the edge. Once you figure which one, you can change your thinkers into workers or tax collectors to reduce the wasted labs in that over the edge base.

	30-11-2000 02:16									#7
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I'd tend to agree with Voodoo, provided that I can afford a proper defense of that base.

About PBs, the requisite is that the base has to be out of range of potential enemies! Field targets won't help you against PBs with higher reactors, on the contrary, a field target may make you lose 2 bases with one PB.
Go for ODP asap, and beware carriers and insertions.

Imagine that you have 2 bases producing both L lab points.

Splitting the 2 projects you get 2L+2L=4L
Grouping them you obtain 4L+L=5L

I'd rephrase this pro from hellrazor: "By the time you start losing RP's, too late in the game to matter"
This means, before you get to losing RPs, it DOES matter getting more of them!!!
True SC & ToE don't come that early neither. And they might be left out of your primary research path.
But if I have to trade between getting more RPs now and losing some later, I'll go for the early gain, hoping that capitalizing on its benefits will help me outweigh the future waste (extreme: the game might have ended before I begin to lose RPs)

	30-11-2000 03:47									#8
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Yes, unless you ramp up your RP production so fast that you're getting more than one tech per turn when the game is still on the line, the single research base is probably better, because you get more benefits early. Of course, every game is different, if I was in a situation where I felt I couldn't protect my base properly, I would diversify.

	30-11-2000 08:40									#9
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This sounds like a good place for jimmytrick to come in and tell everyone how futile all this stuff is, you seldom have the time to make SSC's in MP games...

But I will wait and let him say it

But in my view on this: if I have a runaway lead and I want to exploit it then I will go with 2 SSCies, otherwise..

Don't assume that you will have 2 cities each with "L" lab points.

Assume you have 30 crawlers which work just as well all homed to one base as when they are homed to another base.

Therefore 4*30 = 120, you allocated all of your energy to a single city and used that cities gigantic multiple to the maximum advantage.

VS 2*15 + 2*15 this is obviously better...

Crawlers do make a single city extremely efficient in this regard. And you can allocate extra lab points into economy- cram all those extra economy SPs in there too (err, just the longevity vaccine I guess).

I have played a single player game where I had 2 bases with 400 + credits at each base, I had an intensive crawler park that would not fit on my 15 inch monitor. Each base had one of the major science SP's. I admit that having 2 was better in this situation, but I had a disgusting lead and was just trying to see how ridiculous it could become...

	30-11-2000 18:19									#10
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I tend to agree with the general trend here that it depends on the situation. I think the research hindered and efficiency hindered factions tend to benefit the most from the SSC. Militarily it is a huge weak point though.

	01-12-2000 09:25									#11
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You are bloody right! No way anyone is gonna have time to even contemplate that crap if I am in the game. Now if you are playing against grandpa Mose you can probably do it.

jt