04-01-2003 04:40									#1
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I noticed that if the option 'show enemy moves' is set on, I sometimes see enemy moving units (out of my sight) but sometimes not. Do you know what this phenomenom depends on?

	04-01-2003 04:57									#2
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Hi ST - Happy New Year!

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	04-01-2003 07:45									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Hi ST - Happy New Year! Please join us in our new Succession Game over in Civ2|General The SGs (lubricated)

such blatant spam

	04-01-2003 10:16									#4
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you should talk caesar....i have noticed the same thing.....not sure why that is though

	04-01-2003 19:50									#5
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There are a few bugs where you see things you shouldn't or don't see things you should.

	04-01-2003 22:37									#6
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike There are a few bugs where you see things you shouldn't or don't see things you should.

So what do you think I should see with 'show enemy moves' on? Every enemy's moving unit?

	04-01-2003 22:46									#7
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IIRC correctly with the option checked you should see all enemy moves within your sphere of observation. With it unchecked you only see moves resulting in combat.

When you say you see enemy moves out of your sight I take it you mean you can sometimes see units move when they are one square too far away for observation to be possible. This happens from time to time (someone else can probably tell you the exact circumstances), and of course, most of the time you would only notice it if observe enemy moves was checked.

	05-01-2003 00:00									#8
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i always have fast unit slide on anyway so i hardly notice any enemy moves

quote: Originally posted by War4ever you should talk caesar....i have noticed the same thing.....not sure why that is though

takes one to know one!

	05-01-2003 00:11									#9
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Does it tend to happen more often just after you have "shared maps"??

	05-01-2003 01:27									#10
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Bloody, yes, it does. But not only for one turn.

	05-01-2003 01:50									#11
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@ST,

I was trying to clarify where and when it was happening as you get to see enemy moves for several turns after map sharing.

Let's ask the question another way. Are you asking about seeing enemy moves that are not around your cities, troops, and not after map sharing?? Is it some random unit out in the middle of nowhere, for instance??

Otherwise, the Monk agrees with DrSpike's response.

	05-01-2003 04:35									#12
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I always see all enemy moves after sharing maps - I think just for one turn, but perhaps for 2 turns in some cases. Oddly, once you have uncovered terrain, you can always see barbs attacking/defending, but you can't see the AI units they're attacking.

I assume everyone here knows that when you see an irrigated square in the middle of enemy territory, on its own, that means the AI has placed a city there.

Also, I often see barb ships at the edges of unexplored water - even far from my coast (i.e. outside of normal visual range).

	05-01-2003 05:54									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Also, I often see barb ships at the edges of unexplored water - even far from my coast (i.e. outside of normal visual range).

I see plenty more after a couple of bottles on a Friday night ... sure I can't remember much about it though

------------------

SG(2)

	05-01-2003 09:19									#14
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Monk, I don't remenmer if forepast appearances were after map sharing or not...

quote: Originally posted by Six Year Old Man I always see all enemy moves after sharing maps - I think just for one turn, but perhaps for 2 turns in some cases.

Do you mean moves of all civs or just moves in the area uncovered by map sharing?
Also I saw moves longer than 2 turns in the Mongol scenario.

quote: I assume everyone here knows that when you see an irrigated square in the middle of enemy territory, on its own, that means the AI has placed a city there.

Do you mean that if an opponent builds a city out of zone of my sight then I will see an irrigated square? And that if an opponent irrigate a square then I will see no change (until I will move there my unit)?

Barbs: I supposed I always see every barb on the uncovered map...It isn't true?

	05-01-2003 12:54									#15
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After map exchanges more information becomes available in the way described by STYOM.

In the same turn as the map exchange you can right click on any of the cities of the civ concerned and see the garrison's strongest defender.

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SG(2)

	05-01-2003 13:20									#16
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You can always see barb attacks in the section of the map you happen to have centered regardless of whether you've uncovered the map. A good way to see where your opponents are. If you're paying attention, you can see what unit is attacked.

You sometimes see movement a few turns after a share map if the unit didn't move the turn you shared.

RAH

	05-01-2003 19:10									#17
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quote: Originally posted by SGtwo In the same turn as the map exchange you can right click on any of the cities of the civ concerned and see the garrison's strongest defender.

I think this works not only in the same turn but until that unit moves. And also the changes of the damage of that defender is shown.
It corresponds with the following rah's text...

quote: You sometimes see movement a few turns after a share map if the unit didn't move the turn you shared.

...so the rule might be the opponent's unit is registered until it moves. (?)

quote: ...and see the garrison's strongest defender.

Are you sure the strongest unit and not the last unit that entered the city tile?

quote: Originally posted by rah You can always see barb attacks in the section of the map you happen to have centered regardless of whether you've uncovered the map.

Barb attacks only or any movement of barbs? On centered map only or on centered map + on uncovered map?

	05-01-2003 21:20									#18
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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker Do you mean moves of all civs or just moves in the area uncovered by map sharing? Also I saw moves longer than 2 turns in the Mongol scenario. Do you mean that if an opponent builds a city out of zone of my sight then I will see an irrigated square? And that if an opponent irrigate a square then I will see no change (until I will move there my unit)?

You can see the moves of civs with whom you've shared maps. But now, I'm uncertain as to how many turns this works for.

As for the irrigated squares... yes and yes. You won't see irrigation, or any other activity, in areas which have long been 'mapped' - but you will see new cities showing as lone irrigated squares.

rah, do you mean you can see barbs moving in black space? That could be very handy.

	05-01-2003 23:28									#19
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6000 Year Old Man,

>You can see the moves of civs with whom you've shared maps. But now, I'm uncertain as to how many turns this works for.

Rah says that this works for the first movement of a unit...

	06-01-2003 00:10									#20
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Thanks ST... I should have read more carefully.

	06-01-2003 19:02									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man rah, do you mean you can see barbs moving in black space? That could be very handy.

You can only see their attacks in the black space (not moves). And yes, it is very handy in MP games because it also shows the unit the barb is attacking. If you're paying attention you can see if the attacked unit is fortified or not. (and it's type) Generally if the unit is fortified, it's a city. It gives you a idea where you opponent is.

	06-01-2003 20:56									#22
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More and more, it seems to me that setting barb activity on 'Raging Hordes' is more an advantage than a disadvantage:

1. barb kings @150 - free cash
2. cruising along islands in a transport with a spy aboard - cheap NONs
3. abandoning a city and stationing a diplo or spy nearby - cheap NONs

and now 4... barb attacks reveal the location of enemy cities and defender types (tech level)!

Thanks rah

	06-01-2003 22:27									#23
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I think it has been theorized elsewhere that the game keeps a flag for each tile of "last civ visited" and displays any Barb or other activity in that square. Of course, if it is not Barb the flag is reset and you only see the first enemy unit moving into it. If that unit is a settler/engineer and it founds a city, that would explain the "irrigated tile" phenomenon. This could be exploited in choke points by "refreshing the flag" with frequent visits just to keep an eye on who is moving through. There may be a variation on this effect based on what Difficulty Level you are playing (anybody remember playing at Chieftain level?).

The "exchange map" situation is more of a snap-shot kind of thing, but since units are revealed you also get to see when they next move and in what direction (but only the first move). The AI seems to be very sensitive to map exchanges and will try to move all units that are not working settlers/engineers or occupying fortresses or cities right after an exchange. I think that if a unit stays put, like fort or city defender, you get to see any combat that happens, including the attacker. All these benefits are big endorsements of getting Marco Polo as early as possible, even for early conquest. With wise tech trading you can get everyones maps and find them much easier - to kill or to trade... And you can manipulate their research...

Last edited by Elephant on 06-01-2003 at 22:33

	07-01-2003 02:41									#24
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Marco Polo is a wonder I only started to build after coming here and learning about trade. It's great for finding enemies, saving research time, picking up the odd handy tech, and extracting tribute. I build it right after HG, trying to get HG/MP/Colossus. And, even if playing an insular perfectionist type game, knowing where the AI is situated is crucial... less chance of an ugly surprise for my newly founded outlying cities.

Plus - and I can't prove this - but I'd swear that the AI sends fewer 'explorers' (i.e triremes full of elephants) to my shores once maps have been exchanged.

	07-01-2003 02:55									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man and now 4... barb attacks reveal the location of enemy cities and defender types (tech level)! Thanks rah

Actually I never noticed this until we started playing MP games on smaller rocks. Everyone is compressed and you're more likely to see something in the map area that you're centered on. The larger the map, the more spread out everything is, hence it's not as useful. But real early in an MP game when the barb attacks your neighbor and you see a phalanx defending. (since you can't get them from huts) you know they have at least researched bronz.

RAH
Sometimes I will center my map on a totally black area when the year changes, just to see if I can see something useful. (but you may miss something closer to home)

	07-01-2003 03:01									#26
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quote: Originally posted by rah Sometimes I will center my map on a totally black area when the year changes, just to see if I can see something useful. (but you may miss something closer to home)

I may start doing that, or at least 'zooming out' the view to see if anything is happening in the black lands...

	09-01-2003 05:43									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Elephant I think it has been theorized elsewhere that the game keeps a flag for each tile of "last civ visited" and displays any Barb or other activity in that square.

Do you want to say the activity is showed only for the 'owner' of the tile (i.e. for the last civ that entered the tile)? But barb activities are shown for everybody...

Do you know where elsewhere?

	09-01-2003 06:13									#28
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I gather that there must be some sort of 'last civ visited' flag for each tile. The sum total of these flags (per civ) is what determines the 'land area' statistic on the demographics screen.

	09-01-2003 22:14									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man I may start doing that, or at least 'zooming out' the view to see if anything is happening in the black lands...

Never thought of that. DOH
Sometimes it's the simple thing. But i wouldn't want to zoom out so far that i'd miss out on the detail. And it's a lot harder to know the exact location when it's zoomed out. When you're zoomed in, it's easy to remember the exact hex to black click on to verify that it was a city.

RAH

	10-01-2003 02:13									#30
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actually Graag and i were playing a duel the other night and i saw a barb attack one of his cities in the black, i mean i guessed he was already there, but the barb attack confirmed it for me.....

IMO i believe you need a unit or city within a certain distance of their unit/city attacked to catch it.....

but perhaps its a simple as clicking on the black and getting lucky like rah said.

its very usefull in blocking people if they havne't met you yet

we use to comment to each other about hearing barb attacks...i imagine this is the same thing, its close by, but b/c you weren't set up to see the "right" black area you missed the attack but heard the sound effects, which lets you know you are or someone else is close by....also a handly little tip.

Graag was surprised when i told him i knew where he was and we hadn't met yet, made the fighting over ground to his territory that much more fierce