06-01-2003 05:53									#31
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Aside from one or two to take out spies, I would view them as a waste of production.

I assume we're still aiming for Monarchy, as straight as possible. Warrior Code is one of the prerequisites, so no waste here. Plus, there's still hope we can trade for BW.

	06-01-2003 06:12									#32
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FP, if we offer them the wheel for BW, they would be fools not to accept it. and still they can't do much with it anyway...

DeepO

	06-01-2003 06:32									#33
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As much as I prefer a peaceful builder style of early game, I am not inclined to let Vox get away with trapping us in a box where the only way we can trade for a long time is through them. Either they respect our legtimate needs so all civs in the area can prosper, or they die (at least for all practical purposes) as soon as it becomes convenient for us. No middle ground is practical, because if we plan to take Vox out, we need to keep our entire focus on our military objectives.

Nathan

	06-01-2003 06:36									#34
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO FP, if we offer them the wheel for BW, they would be fools not to accept it. and still they can't do much with it anyway...

They can trade it, and worse, we'd be trading away the higher-cost tech in the deal. Given the advantage their knowing another civ and our not knowing another civ gives them, that doesn't seem like a great idea.

Nathan

	06-01-2003 06:42									#35
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Nathan, you're arguing that should defend our lands with WCs, but cannot afford to get "boxed in". So I presume you're planning for a short period of growth followed by an attack at the isthmus. If this is true, then Mysticism is not the right option. We would need BW, IW and Warrior Code to set us off towards Monarchy (if we plan to do any real damage; with both of us Despotism, the war could last very long indeed). I'm suggesting Warrior Code first because 1) it is tradeable (tradable?) if we do not go to war, and 2) it is part of our war plans if we do. The fact our economy gives us BW and Warrior Code by the time Hurricane is ready to produce Vets is simply icing on the cake.


Dominae

	06-01-2003 06:43									#36
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It's true, I was just pointing out that if we want it very badly, we can get it.

I don't like them being middleman either, so we really need to be able to contact the mystery civ. I'm still hoping they'll allow Grog through. We might even include it in a deal, like BW for wheel + Grog exploring.

DeepO

	06-01-2003 06:57									#37
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quote: BW for wheel + Grog exploring.

We just gave them them isthmus, cleary that should suffice...

Even delaying trade until we met CIV X is a viable option IMO. If it doesn't take too long...
(again, minimap!)

	06-01-2003 19:34									#38
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BW.

-Arrian

	06-01-2003 20:47									#39
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I'm not sure about warrior code. If we would only road the jungle we'd be able to use WCs against Vox, which are far better than archers but cost just as many shields.
If you look at the screenshots you'd see that we only have to road three jungle tiles to be able to get WCs past the jungle belt. For that reason, I am against researching Warrior Code at this time.
However, Bronze Working seems to me more appealing. Vox don't seem very friendly, and I don't think they'd be inclined to trade BW with us. Plus, since they have met another civ they'd be able to broker any techs that we give them to this other civ and become more powerful so this wouldn't be a very fair trade.
I'd rather that we research BW ourselves, so I vote Bronze Working.

	06-01-2003 21:03									#40
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Shiber: Given our situation, WCs are only slightly better than Archers. WCs have the advantage to be a fast unit, but they aren't able to move and fight on jungle and -more important- on mountains. So the normal function of a fast unit, to finish off an injured unit, won't succeed in that unit fled on a mountain or onto unroaded jungle. WCs blow our GA, Archers not. The only real advantage WCs have over Archers is their ability to retreat.

Bronze Working seems to be the best choice, since Vox Controli remains hostile. Soon they shall reap the harvest they sow. As far as I can see, it has the most votes. As a prerequisite for Iron Working, which our strategists see as a must in the war to come, it is good for both offense and defense.

Can we say we agreed to Bronze Working? Objections?

	06-01-2003 21:08									#41
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BW

	06-01-2003 21:20									#42
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I don't really object to BW, but I'm still hopeful that Vox will see the light, and starts to trade with us. In which case WC would be better. But let's keep it to BW for now.

But, apart from this discussion, what are our long term research goals? Monarchy? IW? MapMaking? What could be possible to get from trades, and what can we use? I still think Writing, if possible at all, will be something we'd want to get for trading purposes. Embassies will rule in MP... so if at all possible, I'd like a shot at that.

BTW, looking on the F11 graph, we are going to have the best or close to the best position when it comes to research. We will get a city which has high commerce, and high population, and further more smaller cities then anyone else. Even if now it is still a bit of a on-off thing, our commerce is going to be the best in a few turns time. We might want to consider what we are going to do with that advantage.

DeepO

	07-01-2003 01:49									#43
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How much does tech devaluate? Do we know that?

If we can't trade, IMHO it's better to follow their tech branch, going after things they allready have will at least make it cheaper for us to catch up.
Ans better then having it the other way around...

	08-01-2003 07:00									#44
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If we don't hear from Vox between Turn 27 and Turn 28, do we go with Bronze Working or Alphabet for our research?

	08-01-2003 07:31									#45
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I guess the Alphabet.

-Arrian

	08-01-2003 09:09									#46
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Alphabet. We appear to have come full circle in our reasoning of which tech to go for, so I'm happy with this.


Dominae

	08-01-2003 09:43									#47
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So if Vox says yes or doesn't respond, we go with Alphabet. If Vox says no, we go for Bronze and Iron. Correct?

Nathan

	08-01-2003 10:04									#48
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Sounds like the right thing to do..

	08-01-2003 19:14									#49
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Having looked at Sir Ralph's analysis of what we know about Vox's tech progress (he concluded that they have NOT met anyone else), I wonder if we may want to reevaluate our MapMaking route.

If it's just us and them, and they seem fairly hostile (they sure do to me), then why not BW, IW, Monarchy beeline?

-Arrian

	08-01-2003 22:36									#50
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Double post, sorry.

	08-01-2003 22:37									#51
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We may not want to fight them at all. If in fact they're simply blocking the isthmus to be able to expand without our interference, we have nothing to worry about (sure, they're being "hypocrites" for not letting us through, but we shouldn't let that come between us and success). They're being cold and unresponsive now, but they may want to trade once we put stuff on the table. Alphabet is a fine choice for this, regardless of Map Making. BW, IW and Monarchy are no good for peace at all.


Dominae

	08-01-2003 22:50									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Having looked at Sir Ralph's analysis of what we know about Vox's tech progress (he concluded that they have NOT met anyone else), I wonder if we may want to reevaluate our MapMaking route. If it's just us and them, and they seem fairly hostile (they sure do to me), then why not BW, IW, Monarchy beeline?

Trying to dislodge Vox from behind their chokepoint using WCs would be horribly expensive, and that cost would seriously harm our position relative to other teams. Normally, an attacker has an advantage in terms of concentration of force because he knows where he'll attack and the defender doesn't. That's especially true when the defender's most powerful units are slow-movers. But if there's only a single city we're really in a position to attack, we don't have that advantage.

Even if we want to take Vox out, Map Making would be quite useful because a feint with a few galleys would force Vox to tie up more troops in the rear area. Plus, we might be able to get a leg up on them in the contacts race.

And then again, there's nothing even halfway close to a guarantee that they haven't met someone. It may just be that the other team didn't want to deal, or or at least didn't want to deal for anything other than Ceremonial Burial.

Nathan

	08-01-2003 22:56									#53
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay And then again, there's nothing even halfway close to a guarantee that they haven't met someone. It may just be that the other team didn't want to deal, or or at least didn't want to deal for anything other than Ceremonial Burial.

I just thought of this, but you beat me to it. Maybe they'll perform their trades in one big lump (when the tech costs match up, perhaps?), in which case our analyses will have been correct but our decisions misguided.


Dominae

	09-01-2003 01:05									#54
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My apologies... you're right Nathan. First off, I misremembered their response to the contact question and second I did forget about CB. My bad.

-Arrian