04-01-2003 06:45									#1
	Pottery ready 2670BC, what next? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Discuss. I vote for Bronze Working, if we're not able to trade it from VC within the next 4 turns.

	04-01-2003 06:51									#2
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I have the same idea (but I stated it in the turn 24 thread already). Plus, trading it against the wheel would not be good IMO, if so we need some more. Spears are relatively cheap to research.

Other options: (yeah I know I'm repeating myself): if going for the GLs alphabet, if going for Monarchy Mysticism. Other techs don't have any appeal it seems. And this only when we can get BW from Vox.

DeepO

	04-01-2003 06:52									#3
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If Voxians are not interested in tech trading, Bronze Working may be a necessity. This would be a great waste, so we need to be a lot more convincing diplomatically. If they're still receptive but do not want to trade right now, I suggest Alphabet or Mysticism, both of which we need and they will be more than happy to trade for when the time is right.

Assuming they researched Iron Working first, what would their next priority be?


Dominae

	04-01-2003 06:59									#4
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I don't think that it's a waste, I still think that we should try to get Iron Working soon. If they decide to fight a war with Immortals and approach over the Spinebreaker mountains, we won't even be able to attack them with War Chariots. Some Swordsman backing would be good.

	04-01-2003 07:01									#5
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One possibility I find extremely tempting is to try to set up a trade agreement in advance so we can research Alphabet and agree to trade The Wheel for Bronze Working and then Alphabet for Iron Working. If I remember right, the total tech costs on each side of the double trade would balance (I don't have the editor in front of me), and we'd be the ones trading away the higher-value tech first so they wouldn't have to invest a lot of trust. (And if they're going to double-cross us at the first opportunity, I'd rather the first opportunity be a relatively small one.) Of course that assumes they aren't already researching Alphabet or The Wheel.

Nathan

	04-01-2003 07:13									#6
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Could it be possible that they have IW already? I'm not sure, but I thought that IW was rather expensive, we only have researched the wheel so far which is not that expensive... my gutt tells me they're close to discovering it, but haven't done so already

DeepO

	04-01-2003 07:14									#7
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Besides, don't forget we are on high commerce land, they might not be so lucky.

DeepO

	04-01-2003 07:33									#8
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BW = 3
alphabet = 5
wheel = 4
IW = 6
Myst = 4
horse = 5

	04-01-2003 07:45									#9
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Alva, and pottery? would that be another 3? If so, I'm even more certain that they either researched IW last turn, or are at the brink of discovering it, depending on whether they have good commerce as well, or not. (and of course started on it immediately, not researching ceremonial burial themselves)

DeepO

	04-01-2003 08:10									#10
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Pottery = 2 !!

	04-01-2003 08:33									#11
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Hmmm... so with the same commerce, they could research it in 3 turns (4 turns for us, but we settled one turn later). I doubt they do better, which means they don't have IW yet.

DeepO

	04-01-2003 09:01									#12
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Don't forget we lost just a little time on research due to having our two extra warriors. On the other hand, we now have a clear advantage with our capital at size 3 and theirs at size 1.

If we want to propose an arrangement where we research Alphabet and trade them The Wheel for Bronze Working and then Alphabet for Iron Working, we need to hurry up before they get started on one of those techs (if they haven't already). Although we'd probably want assurances that they won't broker our techs to others before we'd make such a deal at this point.

Nathan

	04-01-2003 09:12									#13
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quote: Although we'd probably want assurances that they won't broker our techs to others before we'd make such a deal at this point.

That is a very important remark...!!!

The quostion, HOW ?

	04-01-2003 14:44									#14
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Perhaps we've made a mistake when we suggested that neither side scouts into the other side's territory any further. If they continue to scout south, all they'll find is us, while if we continue to scout north/west we'll find Vox, and possibly another civ as well.

	04-01-2003 15:03									#15
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Right now, we've just proposed stopping further exploration in each other's areas for the duration of the negotiations. If, during the negotiations, we find out that Vox has other neighbors, I think the next step is to try to arrange things so that they don't intrude farther into our territory and we travel only where necessary to meet Vox's other neighbors (probably with one of their warriors escorting ours to verify that we go only where they want us to toward that end). Similarly, if they refuse to tell us their contact situation, we should insist on being allowed to investigate for ourselves but offer to accept some direction, and an escort if they desire, so we can find out for ourselves without intruding in sensitive areas. Either an exchange of minimaps or our giving them a minimap in exchange for passage through their part of the world might be appropriate as part of the arrangements made.

Nathan

	04-01-2003 17:53									#16
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I was thinking on the same thing... minimap exchanging seems a much better option now, even if we can assume they have less explored then us. It would block part of the specific terrain, while giving us a feel for their lands, and allow us to see whether they have contact with anyone.

As to stopping to scout while negotiating: from their perspective, we violated our own deal first. I would be suprised to see they have stopped moving.

DeepO

	04-01-2003 23:05									#17
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quote: As to stopping to scout while negotiating: from their perspective, we violated our own deal first. I would be suprised to see they have stopped moving.

Again, I don't agree, all they have to do is give us a sign they are ok with it(even shorterm).
You don't have to do this in game afterall A pm would do.
(I do hope the diplo guys here check their PM box regularly
(the auto notofier doesn't always work 100%)

	04-01-2003 23:22									#18
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Well... at least we don't have anything to complain when they would come further...

BTW: the title of this thread is not correct: pottery will be finished in 2710 BC I think.

DeepO

	06-01-2003 04:42									#19
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Now that we can see more of the land on Vox's side of the chokepoint, I'd like to make a proposal. Vox can, if they choose, prevent us from crossing to contact someone else. But there are enough tiles visible on the far side that they would probably have a much more difficult time preventing us from guiding someone to meet us, should their neighbor be interested.

I therefore propose going for Mysticism as our next tech on the grounds that (1) it is part of our long-term strategy to get Monarchy and (2) it is likely to be tradable, whereas Bronze Working and Warrior Code are not. There would be some risk involved in pursuing that approach if Vox tries a major attack really early, but if the strategy works, we would be in a much stronger position than we would without tech trading.

Opinions?

Nathan

	06-01-2003 04:44									#20
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Upon further reflection, I believe we should research Warrior Code next. Here are my reasons:

1. No matter what happens (war or peace), we benefit from this tech. If Vox moves aside, we can trade them this tech, which they no doubt want very much. If we attack, a few well-placed Veteran Archers will expunge the Warriors from our lands and put us on the offensive, hopefully before they get enough Immortals to the isthmus. By the way, Archers are also a good way of saying: "We mean business!".

2. Hurricane, our dedicated unit-pumper, will only be ready to produce Veteran units after we have discovered these two techs (more or less). This is assuming we go with a second Warrior, and not an immediate Barracks. Thus, there are no grounds for the argument that we need Bronze Working first to set up an early defense.

3. The Voxians already have Bronze Working. If something can be arranged diplomatically, we may get it through trade. Researching it ourselves could well be a waste.


Dominae

	06-01-2003 04:46									#21
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DeepO is right, I made a mistake. Pottery is ready 2710BC. Our granary is ready 2670BC.

This makes the discussion more urgent. I vote for either Bronze Working or Warrior Code. Perhaps Warrior Code is an even better choice, in case VC changes her attitude and becomes cooperative, which I highly doubt, but can't completely exclude. We could trade either Wheel or Warrior Code for BW then, or perhaps both for BW+IW, although "they would never accept such a deal", I guess. Warrior Code is also a milestone on the way to Monarchy, so we won't risk to waste beakers.

	06-01-2003 04:48									#22
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Nathan, I believe Warrior Code is very tradable. Also, your proposal rests on the assumption that Vox has contacted someone else, and that war will not break out. Those are two big "ifs". I do see merit in researching Mysticism (because it leads us towards Monarchy), but if we do go to war we will need Warrior Code and Bronze Working anyways. We cannot afford to wait 8 turns at this point.


Dominae

	06-01-2003 04:53									#23
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The deal for Iron Working might be WC+TW+Pottery for BW+IW. That would be even in terms of tech costs if I recall correctly. The trouble is that any trade we make while Vox has contact with someone else and we don't is an opportunity for them to turn around and profit from our techs. Are we better off doing that, or are we better off researching techs Vox already knows at (presumably) a slightly reduced cost?

By the way, it occurs to me that assuming tech costs are lowered when other people you have contact with get techs in MP the way they are in SP, if we could get the math right, we could use that fact to spy a little on what techs Vox has and what they don't.

Nathan

	06-01-2003 05:06									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Nathan, I believe Warrior Code is very tradable. Also, your proposal rests on the assumption that Vox has contacted someone else, and that war will not break out. Those are two big "ifs". I do see merit in researching Mysticism (because it leads us towards Monarchy), but if we do go to war we will need Warrior Code and Bronze Working anyways. We cannot afford to wait 8 turns at this point.

Vox has said that they've contacted someone else. The only assumption involved is that they weren't lying about it, which I'm inclined to accept as an operating hypothesis.

If Vox does attack us so early, we'll still be able to defend our southern area (which is all we'll have built up by then if we focus on developing our core) with WCs. And we'll have plenty of advance warning of any attack.

Nathan

	06-01-2003 05:08									#25
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As far as I can tell we've gotta go for either BW or Warrior Code. Chances are high that we'll be fighting a war in the next 15-20 turns and we'll need both those techs to stand any chance of survival.

I vote for BW.

	06-01-2003 05:25									#26
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Let's assume that Vox has contacted someone (besides us). Then I think the biggest "if" is that we're hoping that civ will come down to the isthmus to meet us in any reasonable amount of time. For all we know, Vox and the other team have signed a pact not to enter each other's lands (which I would do, if I could keep GS isolated).

Mysticism does bring us closer to Monarchy, but by itself it may do nothing else for us. Warrior Code provides Archers, and is a prerequisite to both Monarchy and Horseback Riding. This makes it quite valuable to us in itself, and should be important to other teams for the same reason. Are we facing any Militaristic/Religious civs? I'm not 100% sure, but I do not think so. Therefore if Vox did get Ceremonial Burial from another team, they cannot be getting Warrior Code as well, unless they researched it first (highly unlikely). So again Warrior Code is a safe bet.


Dominae

	06-01-2003 05:30									#27
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet As far as I can tell we've gotta go for either BW or Warrior Code. Chances are high that we'll be fighting a war in the next 15-20 turns and we'll need both those techs to stand any chance of survival.

Why? Anything south of the mountains can be defended quite adequately with WCs, and it will be considerably more than 15-20 turns before we have any genuine need to settle farther north than that (especially if we're in a war and forced to focus on war production instead of expansion). By the time we need to go on the offensive and head north (assuming we haven't already persuaded Vox to give up and go home by then), we can have Bronze Working and Iron Working and use warrior upgrades to swordsmen to give us an offensive force.

And what makes you think Vox will attempt any kind of serious attack so early? That would be a truly stupid thing to do given how much distance favors the defender at this stage of the game.

Nathan

	06-01-2003 05:41									#28
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The only thing I see Warrior Code buying us directly is an easier way to kill Vox's scouts. Archers are less useful than WCs in good terrain and less useful than swordsmen (which we can prebuild warriors to upgrade to) on terrain that would slow WCs down. Aside from one or two to take out spies, I would view them as a waste of production.

Still, this being MP, there is a chance Warrior Code will go overlooked (especially if others make the same "we can always trade for it" assumption left over from SP that I fell into). So I suppose I can go along with it if that's still what everyone else seems to want when the time comes.

Nathan

	06-01-2003 05:47									#29
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Hmmm... I would be inclined to go for BW, and stated this before, but you may be right on archers. BW can be traded, and Vox will have interest in archers if we want to trade it. Further, we could use archers to deal with spies. I don't agree it's good to get to HBR, as we have no imminent need for HBR, our WCs are better (except they can't cross all terrain, of course).

But, if we get a deal across the next few turns, I would go for alphabet, as it is on the way to mapmaking and literature. I'm not sure on the general opinions here: will we be aiming for monarchy first, or rather writing (embassies, contact), mapmaking, literature and possibly republic? Monarchy certainly would be better if we would get into a war with Vox, but as long as there is hope, I wouldn't go for it. War would be too costly when so many teams seem eager to trade techs, there is no way we are going to keep up in research.

DeepO

	06-01-2003 05:51									#30
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I can't see that Vox will trade us BW. To trade us a military tech seems a bit daft.
If I was them I wouldn't want to help us get spearmen. But then again what do I know?