05-01-2003 00:43									#31
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Maybe if it has nice restaurants and such

	05-01-2003 00:56									#32
	There's always a damn good reason not to do the right thing... Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I'm sure the king of friggin England had lots in 1776.

As regards the Turks, again, who cares if they blow a cork on this, the US is the only game in town when it comes to holding the Russians back. Who do you think they'll turn to, the Germans? French? Any of their EU buddies? Hell these paper tigers couldn't even defend themselves these days.

Btw, at no point did I suggest attacking Turkey. The Kurds can figure out how to get their minority free, not our business unless the Turks start training terrorists. Now Iran is another story. We free the Kurds and go looking for volunteers to help us free the Kurds in Iran. Train up a couple of divisions, give em basic weapons and they become the ground force that follows the air assault into Kurdish areas in Iran.

No, we free the Kurds in northern Iraq and then let a free people vote on their own fate. If they want to be part of a new Iraq it will come out in the wash. If they want to be free, they have a couple divisions that we trained for the Iran fighting. They can look after themselves.

	05-01-2003 01:00									#33
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Again I repeat; the Armenian genocide wasn't a one-time
action. Earlier there were several actions which took about 200 000 people each time. Also, it was directed against Armenians, but it ended up in a general slaughter of all the Christians, including Arabs and more than 200 000 Arameans. Kurds were the ones who participated in all this event and took the place of other minorities. Also, Kurds were reproducing quite fast and definite most of the lands they claim to should not under any conditions be given to them.

	05-01-2003 02:04									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer I'm sure the king of friggin England had lots in 1776. As regards the Turks, again, who cares if they blow a cork on this, the US is the only game in town when it comes to holding the Russians back. Who do you think they'll turn to, the Germans? French? Any of their EU buddies? Hell these paper tigers couldn't even defend themselves these days. Btw, at no point did I suggest attacking Turkey. The Kurds can figure out how to get their minority free, not our business unless the Turks start training terrorists. Now Iran is another story. We free the Kurds and go looking for volunteers to help us free the Kurds in Iran. Train up a couple of divisions, give em basic weapons and they become the ground force that follows the air assault into Kurdish areas in Iran. No, we free the Kurds in northern Iraq and then let a free people vote on their own fate. If they want to be part of a new Iraq it will come out in the wash. If they want to be free, they have a couple divisions that we trained for the Iran fighting. They can look after themselves.

Neat and idealistic, but it won't work.

Establishing an independent Kurdistan in northern Iraq would cause Turkey to panic. But if carving up an Arab, Muslim country isn't enough, you're suggesting a subsequent invasion of Iran, to carve them up. Consider that America is trying to GET the support of Muslim countries. That's the first and last way America can actually have a say in what happens in the Middle East.

In the meantime, Turkey would clamp down on Kurdish movements in Turkey, while whichever warlords who appear after Saddam falls in Iraq would swarm into the volatile region, looking for booty. In 10 years, you'd have Iraqis, Iranians, Turks, Kurds, various other foreign expeditions, far-leftists and far-rightists bashing each other in "Free Kurdistan". It'll kinda be like Bosnia plus Palestine plus post-Soviet Afghanistan, times ten. Such a failed region will also be the prime choice for Al-Qaeda's next hideout and headquarters.

In the meantime, the Kurdish children born in the next 10 years can expect live (and fight wars) in a region where infrastructure doesn't exist, politics is mainly AK-47's, and economy is a dream.

Great "freedom" for Kurdistan, I'd say.

Keep the current status-quo: an autonomous Kurdish region in Iraq, increased pressure on Turkey, before and after its introduction through the doors of EU. The Kurds will be able to build their homeland into paradise.

	05-01-2003 02:13									#35
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I have to agree with Eroberer and ranskaldan. They are spot on! A liberated Kurdistan would make Uzbeckistan look rich in comparison. It would be a war zone for decades and would have more problems than Afghanistan has had in recent times.

	05-01-2003 02:27									#36
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Don't forget Shi Huangdi.

He brought up a very good point: America should be providing incentives and support to governments that are supportive.

This may seem too pragmatic, but the only other choice is a hostile Middle East, as if it isn't hostile enough already.

	05-01-2003 02:37									#37
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I think the opinion that Kurds will go on fighting ad infinitum is a bit biased to the fact that they are not being given their freedom because of purely geostrategic reasons.

A semi free kurdistan is established in N. Iraq and is doing just fine under the supervision of the international community.


As for Turkey crossing the doors of the EU, sorry but you can forget about that (talking realisticly here).

But there WILL be pressure for Turkey to become more democratic which will help the Kurds.

After 40% of your population is another ethnicity you give them rights or hell breaks lose (again).



Also I weouldnt be so quick to reward regimes that support me but be more inclined to support the people themselves. (if it does not destroy me).


I think it pays more in the long run.

	05-01-2003 02:53									#38
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I think the opinion that Kurds will go on fighting ad infinitum is a bit biased to the fact that they are not being given their freedom because of purely geostrategic reasons. A semi free kurdistan is established in N. Iraq and is doing just fine under the supervision of the international community.

Exactly... that's the part that I support.

quote: As for Turkey crossing the doors of the EU, sorry but you can forget about that (talking realisticly here). But there WILL be pressure for Turkey to become more democratic which will help the Kurds. After 40% of your population is another ethnicity you give them rights or hell breaks lose (again). Also I weouldnt be so quick to reward regimes that support me but be more inclined to support the people themselves. (if it does not destroy me). I think it pays more in the long run.

It doesn't pay, since you need these regimes.

Usually popular sentiment in the ME (or anywhere) is more volatile and extremist than the regime's stance. Remove those regimes and, I'm sorry to say, the ME will tear itself apart. It's a matter of choosing between the lesser of two evils.

(Well, there are exceptions where the regime is MORE extremist than the population, and that's when these regimes become dangerous... like the Taliban for instance. But even then, the power vacuum that results from removing a regime overnight can still be damaging.)

	05-01-2003 03:05									#39
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I love cheese kurds dude, let them have their own ocuntry!

	05-01-2003 03:17									#40
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well rask I disagree.

The US supports regimes which opress people. People dont hate these regimes so much as they hate the US.
And it will blow up when democracy is installed in these countries.

Prime example of that is S. Korea. The antimericanism there is so strong now it is something the PM has to take under serious consideration when policy making.


The US support for brutal regims have mae S. Koreans more anti-american than the N. Koreans will ever be.

The only thing that still allows some relation with the US is mutual fear by both from eachother.


Also I think it is a bit naive to think that once US or west supported brutal regimes go away, chaos will result.


With the proper attention from the int. community and NO funny games of real politik being forced on them, you'd be surprised how many peope just want
peace.

	05-01-2003 03:17									#41
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Yeah mazerella cheese kurds are kurds are the best.

	05-01-2003 03:20									#42
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I like wisconsin chjedar kurds! we're talkign about cheese right? not epopel?

	05-01-2003 03:22									#43
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not to mention the obvious.

that when under a brutal regime people will radicalize.

into ugly things.

like islamic extremists for example.

so are you fighting the water that comes from the river (and not blocking its source?)

i think so. although i understand full well the real politik implications. but its a choice one makes. and pays.

	05-01-2003 03:25									#44
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paiktis do you klike the kurds ? I figure since they heate turks yo might lkike them

	05-01-2003 03:28									#45
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I am neutral.
Although I am a bit biased in favor of them because i kind of consider them like the greeks under the ottomans but who never got their independance from the ottomans.

but since it is about their freedom, which is a nice goal, i can live with that bias

	05-01-2003 03:32									#46
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haha that other thread got deleted! anywasy freedom is good, everyoen should be free... if kurds want their own country... give it to them

	05-01-2003 03:45									#47
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quote: I think the opinion that Kurds will go on fighting ad infinitum is a bit biased to the fact that they are not being given their freedom because of purely geostrategic reasons.

That's nice, but hardly any one on this thread has said the Kurds will go on fighting .

I think what you mean is that other people fighting over Kurdistan .

	05-01-2003 03:48									#48
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I think that rask allured to the opinion that once a kurdish state is formed there will be intrafighting.

	05-01-2003 04:07									#49
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Yeah, but not necessarily because of the Kurds. I believe what he was refering to is interested parties OUTSIDE of Kurdistan, stirring up trouble.

	05-01-2003 04:19									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer So what if the arab world becomes even more fractured and filled w/ small states? It's the small states that seem to want to help stabilize the region by helping us whack all the nasty boys...

Sure! Look how Chechnya worked out!

	05-01-2003 04:21									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I have to agree with Eroberer and ranskaldan. They are spot on! A liberated Kurdistan would make Uzbeckistan look rich in comparison.

Iraqi and Iranian Kurdistan sit on top of quite a bit of oil. The Mosul district of Iraq is so valuable that France and Great Britain almost fought over it following the carving up of the area after WWI.

Frankly, a nation of twenty-five million people ought to be allowed to have their own country if that's what they want . . . and they do. We argue over the rights of tiny limp-**** statelets in the Balkans or Israel and Palestine, while this group is the largest nation in the world by far not to have their own state.

	05-01-2003 05:51									#52
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Yeah... and look what happened to the Balkans.... or Israel/Palestine.

2000 years of flipping Alsace-Lorraine from France to Germany and back didn't solve the problem. Making everyone sit down, be quiet, and work together did. Today no one cares who Alsace-Lorraine belongs to anymore, not because it now belongs to the *right* side (Alsace speaks German so it obviously doesn't), but because the borders are open and the nations are developed.

And as for the dispute about exactly what I said, I mean all parties: internal Kurdish factions, factions of Arab/Turk/Persian minorities in Kurdistan, pockets of foreign factions from Iran and Iraq, and throw in other factions too, the kind that we find in Bosnia and Afghanistan with long names containing some combination of "Freedom", "Democratic", "Islamic", "Liberal", "National", and "Army".

I wouldn't consider that freedom, not really.