04-01-2003 15:31									#1
	Free Kurdistan! Remove this text

Why shouldn't we make a Kurdish republic out of northern Iraq? If we have to take out the trash we might as well do the job right, yes? So what if the Turks don't like it, we can still invade from Kuwait or the sea. The Iraqis can't do anything to stop us since we have undisputed air supperiority. Self determination for the Kurds is what they want and the right way to go!

The Kurds would also be a firm friend if we needed to go into Iran, the second leg of Bush's axis of evil, since there are plenty of Kurds in Iran...

	04-01-2003 15:45									#2
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We don't even have to invade to pull it off since the region is already autonomous from Baghdad. We could just say, "Kurdistan is independent and its independence will be protected by the US." That's it.

A free Kurdistan would be great, humane goal, but it won't happen for precisely the same reason that it hasn't happened in the past decade.

	04-01-2003 16:02									#3
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While self-determination is good in theory, the reality is that there are umpteen-gazillion different cultures in this world, and many of them might take the formation of Kurdistan as their que to demand their self-determination/autonomous regions. A world of 200 some-odd nation-states could easily become a world of 2,000 some-odd nation-states, many of them too small to effectively govern themselves (government, economy, transportation, education, health services etc.). This is why the United States isn't more gungho (sp?) about supporting its formation, in fact the United States' official position is against its formation. Current thought is that the region would be more stable if Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Turkey maintained their current territories and worked with their Kurdish populations.

	04-01-2003 16:14									#4
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No freaking chance in the world the US will go for a free Kurdistan. First of it's not in the interest of Turkey and that not worth it as there's not that much to gain for the US. Who needs another poor and unstable country in the region? Not only this, the kurdish people are spread over a number of borders in the area and what would be the regional effect if a part of it became a independet state based on a national idea? It would probably only futher destabilize the entire region.

	04-01-2003 16:18									#5
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I'm NOT falling for this again!

Someone posted a "Free Winona Ryder" thread a while back, and I'm still waiting for mine!

	04-01-2003 16:34									#6
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What is Turkey now that the Sovs are belly up? I'll tell you what, what its always been up to the cold war, europe's problem! Now we have a chance to support the self determination of an emerging nation, and maybe make a friend that will help us with current problems... We saved the Turks and the Turks helped us, it's a done deal.

So what if the arab world becomes even more fractured and filled w/ small states? It's the small states that seem to want to help stabilize the region by helping us whack all the nasty boys...

	04-01-2003 16:37									#7
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Kurdistan wouldn't help you with anything, it would be way to weak to do much other that annoying others and will probably cost the US some to keep it alive.

	04-01-2003 16:44									#8
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Also, it's safe to say that turkey is much more trustworthy and stable than Kurdistan would ever be. It's hardly worth to lose them as friends to start some absurd nationbuildning in the mountains. The anger from other states will just make it harder for the US to make peaceful agreements and deals as the US will take side for a bunch of rebels.

	04-01-2003 18:33									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer The Kurds would also be a firm friend if we needed to go into Iran, the second leg of Bush's axis of evil, since there are plenty of Kurds in Iran...

A friend in need is a friend indeed...

Regardless of what the Kurds want, Turkey would never stand for it, and the US doesn’t want to piss of such an important ally in the region.

Even if the Kurds declare independence with out any help from the US or its allies, Turkey would most likely invade, and I would doubt the US would do anything more then make the usual diplomatic protests.

	04-01-2003 18:38									#10
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Damn Kurdistan, free Tibet already..

	04-01-2003 18:50									#11
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No. Turkey and Iran would never agree on that.

	04-01-2003 19:02									#12
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Indeed Free Kurdistan

Or don't. in 2020 40% of turkish population will be kurds anyway and things will take care of themselves.

	04-01-2003 19:19									#13
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paiktis, that's amazing, 40%! I had no idea. So if nearly half of the populaion of Turkey is Kurd, and you add in those in Iraq and Iran you might end up with a country with more people than Turkey. That's no small potatoes. A country like that could replace Iraq as a balance for Iran...

I'm more convinced than ever that helping these people is the right thing to do. If we help their oppressors keep them down we will gain only their hatred when they do finally free themselves.

Besides, those of us who are Americans should support self determination if we believe in our country and its heritage.

Free Kurdistan!

	04-01-2003 19:35									#14
	Remove this text

Lancer, that's why Turkey is desperate in keeping them down.

A large chucnk of its land will go away with them.

"Fortunately" it was able to carry on ethnic cleansing operations (yes burning up whole villages) with german and US arms to quel the rebelion of these people because Turkey is a very important geostrategic ally of the "west".

Other leaders have gone to jail for that.

That is also a reason many Turks are VERY speptical about the EU. Entering it virtually could mean a free kurdistan too.


Unfortunately Kurds are lso divided between themselves.


Also Turkey did treat them better than Iraq and knowing about Tukrye's handling of them I really really fear to think what Iraq has done to them.

	04-01-2003 19:38									#15
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Turkey also very recently (to enter the EU) has allowed parents to name their kurdish children with kurdish names and has allowed them to speak their own language in public without fear of persecution.

This it has indeed done. But its new law about letting freedom of press for the kurds are NOT being carried out.

	04-01-2003 19:45									#16
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The EU must be aware of that, yes? Is the EU turning a blind eye?

	04-01-2003 19:47									#17
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quote: Also Turkey did treat them better than Iraq

that doesn't say much.

	04-01-2003 19:48									#18
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It IS turning a blind eye in the respect that, like the US, the EU does very little to nothing to stop those crimes against the Kurds (who bare in mind also have armed resistance movements, called terrorists by the turkish regime the US and the EU)

But it does not turn a blind eye when it comes to petitions of Turkey to enter the EU.

But yes the EU is quite aware about them. The US government too.

	04-01-2003 20:04									#19
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Free the Kurds

	04-01-2003 20:12									#20
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Ok, I have to admit I'm a bit ignorant about this subject.. I know there has been some troubles between turks and kurds, and kurds have had rough time in Iraq, but what's the history behind this?

	04-01-2003 21:10									#21
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Kurds are a people straddling the borders of Iraq, Iran and Turkey. After the fall of the Ottomans they didn't get the independence that they wanted and the Europeans drew the borders into the weird ways that it is today (as usual). Hence today the Kurds are a minority in Turkey, Iran, and Iraq.

And I personally think that there's too much idealism brewing around here. Words like "free" are meaningless if the people of a certain region, after gaining "freedom", are going to fight themselves and outsiders for a zillion decades until their entire economy and infrastructure are destroyed. This is not necessarily what'll happen to Kurdistan, but considering the region's volatile past, carving a state out of three existing powerful ones and hoping that all four would sit down and not mind is insurmountably difficult. Not to mention that two of these states already hate the US, one tries to stand for Arab nationalism, and the remaining one is an important strategic ally. Bad choice.

	04-01-2003 23:14									#22
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Contrary to paitkis' propoganda, there has never been any genocide of the Kurds. Currently 20% of Turkey's population is Kurdish. There would not be such a high population of Kurds if Turkey was going around massacaring them. There was however, a civil war there, and in the modern era nearly ever civil war nobody has clean hands especially considering the potency of guerilla warfare.

Lancer, if you wanted to keep the Northern Iraq part of Kurdistan free, that would be easy. To free all of Kurdistan proper however, you would have the fight the armies of Syria, Iran, and Turkey, all of which have Kurdish lands. To get the Turkish lands you would have to invade the southeast, Turkey, which is one of the worst grounds for fighting and the defender would have a huge advantage. We would likely to significant casulties in any such war. (And this would probably mean to whoever is President at the time loses their next election) Moreover, if somebody was invading from that direction, Turkey most likely would start a real genocide campaign to try to eliminate guerilla threats behind their lines.

Although the Cold War is over, Turkey is still a key ally. It's territory lines the straits guarding the Black Sea. It borders three countries which are hostile to the US: Iraq, Iran, and Syria. The Middle East is a very hostile region to us, and we need the friends we can get in the region. Turkey is also key to mainting Israel's safety as it is an ally of that state, Israel's only ally in the region. Even if you did liberate Kurdistan- you claim they would help in getting Iran. The fact is the Kurds failed in both their insurrections in Iraq and Turkey. If you took a whole new Kurdish state it would not be that rich and it would not have a quality 600,000 man army like Turkey does. Moreover, if Russia in the future ever were to become strong, Turkey would become a key state to us as it was during the cold war. Also, Chegitz has pointed out before many Kurdish leaders are communists as there is a risk a free Kurdistan might be a socialist state. Moreover, if Turkey's government lost it's western support, it is a Moslem country and we risk fundamentalist uprisings in that country.

In any case, Turkey is an ally of the United States. It's bad diplomacy to go around attacking your allies. Turkey has been a loyal ally since the end of the Second World War, has been a loyal during the Cold War, and has been a solid friend in an unfriendly middle east since then. It would most likely anger all of our European allies except Greece, and would probably be the death blow to NATO. If you attack even your own allies then nobody will trust you.

	04-01-2003 23:18									#23
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That's just the things Shi has copied from turkish sites and pro turkish sites to troll.


Civil war, right.

They burn up whole villages.


Those are crimes against humanity pure and simple.

As for Shi I refer you clearly to my sig.


You with your lies try to justify US stance and to a certain degree the EU one. (alhough we actually try to make Turkey democratic and not a murderer of its people)

But don't try in vain.

	04-01-2003 23:20									#24
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ranskaldan, thanks for the briefing. I feel more educated now.

So, as long as I don't know anything else, I support Free Kurdistan! Of course it wouldn't work just like that, like ranskaldan pointed out. But.. until I get more information, I'll be for Kurdistan for Kurds.

	04-01-2003 23:24									#25
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"That's just the things Shi has copied from turkish sites and pro turkish sites to troll. "



What an insult! Paiktis, I assure you I produce all my own propoganda myself!

	04-01-2003 23:32									#26
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True. Sorry for the insult. You do get some ideas from those sites though.

	04-01-2003 23:42									#27
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Despite the propaganda you also have some blatant eye poping mistakes in there as well.

Kurds were promised freedom by tyhe turks if they fought against the armenians (the armenian genocide by Turkey - 1,5 million people)


They never got it.

Also a prosperous for that region semi free Kurdistan is already formed in N. Iraq.

European members dont care about Turkey being attacked. It is not part of the family anyway and it would be for a good cause. it would be the same as attacking irawq from a humanitarian point of view. no for no to bloddshed sake. which is good

But conflict wont even be necessairy for the turks to acknowledge kurdish independance.

And others which Im bored to pin point.

Lancer is right though. With 40% of the turksih population kurds in 2020 and most of them hating the US guts (not so much europe because we actually put some minor very minopr pressure to turkey) you have on more peoples hating you.



But Turks also dont love you. Your games in Iraq have destrpyed their economy and they think that you take our side on everything. (hey dont ask)
they turkish regime is the one which guarantees the country's alligiance to you. the people dont like it, or you.



There are very few people who love you in that region.

	05-01-2003 00:22									#28
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Why free a people who don't want to be free? Most of the mainstream Kurdish parties advocate a federal republic system in a post-Ba'th Iraq, which would give the Kurds a degree of autonomy and more representation in the governance of the whole country. A federal Iraq with concern for the rights of all its varying parts is probably best for the future of the Middle East; a balkanized Iraq is arguably worse than a Saddamized (no pun intended) Iraq.

	05-01-2003 00:26									#29
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Its hard to talk about balkans in a region that counts countryes by the tens of millions.

and Kurds want to be free, very much so.

	05-01-2003 00:38									#30
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Are you sure they won't settle for a really nice condo instead of a country? Or maybe a nice stripmall...