29-10-2000 03:44									#1
	Early game terraforming - farms or forests? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

OK, the year is 2105, you have just produced your first formers unit. You have several rolling/moist squares nearby, and several flat squares. So, the dilemma - do you build a farm/solar on the rolling/moist, or a forest on the flat? IMO, a forest would be impractical, as the only producing you're going to be doing is a colony pod, which requires a size 2 base. OTOH, there are players that swear by forests straight-off, for the extra production. So what would you rather have at the start, nuts or minerals?

	29-10-2000 04:47									#2
	Support Apolyton

I am renown to covet growth just a bit less than chocolate.

As you said, a balanced approach must be very flexible, and very contingent.
That is, do what you really know you'll be using in the immediate.
If from your example you have no 2N(utrients) tile, then it would take you to 2120 to get to size 2!
Now, foresting will grant you 1M & 1E extra over the rolling moist square. But as you said, what will you produce with the extra mineral? Not a colony pod first. Thus if you think useful to build something else before the colonist, forest can be acceptable. Of course growing so slow will also make returnless (in the immediate) to improve a second square for that base (you'll have to invest in terraforming "for the future").

But if you farm one of those rolling/moist, you'll get to size 2 in 2115 instead of 2120. In the meanwhile you'll have forested a flat tile for the second worker to use. That way, instead of producing 1 extra mineral from 2110 to 2120, you'll be producing 2 extra minerals from 2115 to 2120. The mineral count is even, but you'll have more nutrients accumulated to grow again to size 2. True, you'll have collected less energy for now, but you'll catch up later with interests.

Of course this is very sensible to environmental opportunities, so the presence of rainy squares, Monoliths, nutrient or mineral bonuses can change it all. That's what I meant with flexible.

	29-10-2000 04:54									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

A very good advise I can giv to you is: put up a very simple scenario, with the conditions you want to test.
Save the starting position, play 15 or 20 or 25 turns, and again with every variant you can think to.
Tally and compare the assets you obtained with the different strategies.

	29-10-2000 05:59									#4
	Remove this text

Depends. If I need food, I will make a farm. If I need minerals, I will make a forest.

Yes I know, it sounds like a stupid answer. But actually, it is *the* answer.

For example, if I were building a colony pod, I would look at the net result. Will building a forest cause me to finish the pod *well* before my base is size 2? Then I will build a farm on the highest rainy square I can see. Otherwise, I will build a forest.

And then again, on a tournament map, I might just as easily be building a recycling tanks in 2105. In which case, it's a no-brainer. Yea forest!

	29-10-2000 06:07									#5
	Got spare money?

Well, you're missing one of the advantages of putting up an early forest: growth of the forest.
The longer the stand of forest has been up, the more chances it has had to expand. And by mid game, a couple hundred forested squares can make a big difference in my strategy. Of course we could all with for hydroponics pods, but what can you do?
I think a forest, then build recycling tanks. Rush them at the end of their queue, thenm go into the pod. time the pod for the turn after growth.
Just my thoughts.
Black Sunrise

	29-10-2000 06:40									#6
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Not really. Thing is, I'm extremely unlikely to build more than one farm for a base. I do sometimes, of course, depending on the circumstances. But generally, no.

Forests do expand, and they form the fast majority of my terraforming. But in terms of expansion, the difference between building one farm, followed by lots of forest, and one forest followed by a farm and then lots of forest, or even just forest, is minimal.

Funnily enough, I build far more farms in MP than I do against the AI. The reason is that many games are over and done with so quickly. I've played a couple that were over before anyone got to tree farms - or just a few turns later. So that really changes the way you look at things ...

This is one of the things that I really like about SMAC/X - it forces you to be flexible. I have done things in MP that I'd never consider for a moment in SP - because the timescales are so different.

	29-10-2000 16:34									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Also, how important are solar collectors in the very early game? I have had game where the first thing I have built is a solar collector - on a rolling/rainy square at above 1,000'. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

Forests for me, in the early game, are better off left alone - at that point, you want a reasonable sized base, rather than a productive one. You switch to forests when you can be certain of producing 7+ minerals from that bases - for SPs. I have often wondered about this strategy, as it is the only one I have ever bothered with, regarding this part of the game an irrelevance. What does everyone else do?

MariOne:

Thanks, that is a good piece of advice, and one I might well take up later today, if I can be bothered. I am inclined to agree with your thinking for 2-1-0 over 1-2-1, but as soon as you have the Recycling Tanks, extra growth becomes a bit of a non-issue. That is when I would switch from farms to forests. In MP games - when you start with a size 3 base - I will always build forests first - as it would allow me to produce Colony Pods that much quicker.

Mis:

It really depends on whether you have rush-built your Former to begin with. If you have - you will need the extra growth in order to get the Colony Pod out - and a second forest square to increase the production.

Sunrise:

Growth of forests becomes more of an issue the larger your continent is, IMO. If you can get a forest to grow into the production radius of your new base site, great - so much quicker you can get the Former out. But is this really a good idea, to sacrifice the extra growth, even on a larger landmass, on the off-chance the forest might just 'fall' into another production radius?

So, yeah, that is the basics of it. But what about solar collectors - are they of much use in the early game considering they take 6 turns to build before the WP?

Just trying to give this forum a bit of life....

	30-10-2000 01:48									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

mark13,

Solar collectors are nice-ish early on if you have the time, but you don't, so don't build them. The only time you might is on an energy resource at high altiude. They can be very useful once you can build echelon mirrors, with amazing raw energy output, but that tactic is only better than forests under certain circumstances... mainly where you have lots of fairly high, wet land. Otherwise the terraform time will put you behind, long term.

	30-10-2000 02:35									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I think it is a mistake to get locked into a set starting strategy.

I'll typically start with a forest but if I think the situation warrents it I am willing to go farm first to a 1-1-0 moist tile or even solar panel if I am already getting 2-1-0 on a rolling rainy.

Regarding the solar, whereas an energy or two doesn't make much difference after ten or twenty turns, it can make a big difference in the first ten turns. Your objective is to maximize the return on the first tile you work outside of the city. So the early solar can be a good move.

With blind research I find myself building more farms and kelp early on. It usually takes me a long time to get to tree farms.

	30-10-2000 05:08									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

My vote is for a forest first. If your rushing to get to size 2 as fast as you can your going to need a police unit (on transcend level) to make up for the drone pop 2 will inevitably produce. Now, of course, you could always just let your free independent unit sit in the base and serve as a police unit, but I like to use mine to scout out areas for new bases and pop pods. So I build a forest first and another scout unit to serve as police when I eventually build the farm and raise my base to size 2. Then I build the next pod which should be able to be timed perfectly (by rush building if need be) with the growth of the base on one turn then the build of the pod on the next (otherwise a turn is lost in riot if you don't have a unit serving as police when your pop raises to 2). In the early game I'm going for more bases as opposed to large base which I concentrate on after the initial expansion.

	30-10-2000 20:18									#11
	Get a bigger avatar today!

First of all there can be no set strat, and there are SO many factors that effect these choices, but here are the things I look at.

My goal is to have a 2+ nutriant square and a forest square during my exspansion phase. White Elephant's point about having a police unit around is an important consideration. So look at the porduction que. If you can build a scout and a colony pod before going to pop 2, then build a farm, otherwise build a forest.

As for solar collectors early, forget about them. It is better to have two developed squares for your home base, then build roads to the next site than to build a collector. If time permits drop a sensor at the new site. After the next base has its two tiles maxxed, then send your formor back to the home base to put in those collectors.

	30-10-2000 20:45									#12
	Tired of ads?

I would be tempted to plant a forest square first, just to let it spread, and then plant some farms. But that is my opinion. If you have a low lying bunch of flat/moist squares, just stick some forest on them and let it spread (or even low lying rolling/moist), I like to stick farms on the wet squares.

But the jist is, build a square of forest early and let it spread...and put it in a place where it will spread. Remember if you get forest where you don't want it, you can always chop it down later at no extra cost, but with a small mineral boost!

	31-10-2000 02:02									#13
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Farm first, always, unless I can get 2/1 from a square. My reason is simple. You need to get to a size 2 base first, then you simply rush the colony pod.

regarding forest growth: Who cares? By the time you need more than two squares, one forest and one farm/rolling/moist, you will have had plenty of time for forest growth. Each base typically produces at least 3 CP before moving on to something else, and the forest will have had plenty of time to grow by the time you finish the third.

My terraforming order is always this (assuming that there is no rainy/rolling): farm, forest, sensor, solar collector on the farmed square. Then road to the nearest base, then help it complete this sequence. After that, it's usually time to double back to do a second farm square.

	31-10-2000 04:31									#14
	Full PM-box? Change here!

From the sounds of things here, it depends what strategy you're playing as to what you do first. Expansionists tend to produce farms to get the Colony Pod out quicker, whereas builders look at forests, to develop the land a bit more, then get the CP out. Interesting, although there may be other factors in the equation, i.e.:

- Small starting island - if your island can only cope with five or six bases, it might be a good idea to get cracking on the forests - you need to build up every base to its maximum potential.

- Large continent to start - if you are looking to get as much territory as possible early on, churn the colony pods out and worry about developing the bases later.

Also, the quality of the starting position itself seems to have an effect - if you're position is fairly arid, forests are a good idea, to give each square its maximum production early on.

If you have a reasonable starting place, farms are your best bet, as they will allow you to get colony pods out quicker, thereby increasing your number of bases exponentially.

If your starting place is particularly good (the western side of Mount Planet, for instance) a road and a sensor to your next base site, thereby increasing security, and ensuring the survival of your second base.

All these factors, it seems to me, must be weighed up and put into perspective, in order to prioritise resourcefully.

How much effect on your overall standing in the game do different terraforming strategies have? In short, how much does it matter whether you build a farm or a forest? It would seem to me to matter greatly, (not least of which when I forget caps lock is on and produce a forest instead of a farm ) as it sets the tone for the strategy of that particular game.

	31-10-2000 12:37									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Looks like Mark13 has summarized most of the factors involved in making the first terraforming decision.

The only other factors I would add are faction choice,which partly determines how much to go the builder or expander route. But also Diedre has the fungus nutrient bonus which affects the decision. And of course it is a different ballpark for Sven. The Aliens start out with the tanks, so they are getting better growth before they start terraforming.

Then there is the tech time for terraformers v. growth time issue. If I am playing double blind it might take me a while to get that first former out there if I am a slow tech faction. At that point I will already be big enough to be into drone management so that growing quickly will not be optimal until I have the tech for the base improvements to keep people happy. OTOH if I am Cha Dawn or one of the Aliens I've got my former from the point I arrive on planet.

Pod popped specials near your first city would be another consideration. You'll often get a monolith or nutrient special, which makes foresting first all that more attractive.

On the garrisoning issue I am surprised how aggressive some of the other players are. I've had too many early worm visitations to want to try the garrisionless method out for very long.

	09-11-2000 02:15									#16
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I'd like to recast my vote and say farms first. I stand corrected. Thank you.

	09-11-2000 19:55									#17
	Put an end to popups!

I would like to call for a revote. I was confused by the options and may have cast my vote for mines by mistake.

	09-11-2000 21:46									#18
	Increase the size of your Attachments

VC,

Your only allowed a revote if your from Florida . Since your moniker says your from Georgia I'm afraid the election committee will most likely deny your request .

	18-11-2000 04:24									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I would like a chance to revote. The selections were very confusing, and I think I voted for Pat Bunkercannon instead of Al Farmboy. Let the confused speak!

	18-11-2000 05:09									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Well, unfortunately, this is a vote about terraforming, and has nothing to do with some obscure election that may be going on in some unimportant part of the world

The thing is, I can't be bothered to do a manual recount - I'll leave that to all the farm supporters

	19-11-2000 09:50									#21
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Unimportant part of the world? I say we keep having recounts until it comes out the way I like.

	19-11-2000 12:59									#22
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

i think they are using fuzzy math in florida ....little known sub-project of Gore's Reinventing Government efforts was a lab on reinventing punch card tabulations...can't accuse him of wasting government money, he is putting all he learned to good use now...i wonder how the military folks whose ballots are being tossed out by the Dems are going to feel about their commander in chief if Gore is selected (i won't say elected, no way)...

	22-11-2000 18:54									#23
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

[quote]Originally posted by mark13 on 10-28-2000 06:44 PM

My opinion is, every move of the former without terraforming is lost time. Normally, I would build
farm + solar collector first, but if the rainy square
is 2 squares away from the base , I would build forest first. If I start on a dry continent with only few wet squares, I begin with forest, because the forest can spread over the dry land. If you start with forest, don't forget to built a sensor array.

	24-11-2000 10:12									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hey Jimmytrick! I doubt you know me but I have been lurking at these forums for a very long time and posting on and off for maybe a year...

The biggest question for me is what faction I am. When I am Morgan on a standard planet with selected research then biogenetics rolls around between year 5-7 and I rush recycling tanks into BOTH of my first two cities SIMULTANEOUSLY! Then I just completely skip centauri ecology for a few years and go with industrial economics for even more energy to further recycling tank powered expansion. Compare this to Yang- where you will have tons of cities with almost no energy. With Yang if I see any squares above 1000M I immediatly solar them, the single energy from forests is not enough since your base squares are not bringing in any energy. In order to not get completely behind as Yang farms and solars generally work well in the early game because you can support enough formers to make this more former intensive stuff, and you can support police units for the larger population. But I think that early forests are the best long term decision for most non Yang factions. The extra energy will be coming in before you would be able to finish a solar plant, and you can use your terraformer for something else quickly.

	24-11-2000 17:50									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

In my experiences with the good Chairman, you don't bother about energy - you use probes! And lots of them! Yang main strength is his industrial capacity, so forests work well to further strengthen that. As for tech, well, what do you think probe teams are for?

The fact is, however, in my experiences, Centauri Ecology is the most important technology in the entire game - I always research it before anything else. Industrial Base is next, and then you're on the road to Industrial Automation....

Mark13

	03-12-2000 03:09									#26
	Remove this text

Early in the game I forest all dry squares, and farm only wet or raining squares and add solar collectors. This does not change until treefarms are available, then everything from then on is forest. I very rarely ever build mines, and will totally ignore rocky terrain in the first part of the game, except to put road on them to get around faster. So far I have not had a problem with this, and it hardly ever causes sea level changes.

	03-12-2000 09:50									#27
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

My strategy is always forest arid squares, farm-solar the rest. Once Tree Farms become available, change the moist squares into forests. I forest everything when Hybrid Forests become available.

If I have a positive Planet rating, I fungus everything when I have most of the Centauri techs. At that point, I sometimes have my most productive bases build fungus missiles, detonate them over my own land, then send my units out to mop up the mindworms.

------------------
Two Women Escaping in a Phonebooth: Reiko Aya & Akane Karasuma

mooniecode[1.12.25] SM:5[6]m- F:sUr++Pl>++:vAlLeS[+]Gx X:***:aCl[R2]mRSmSSSmSSAm*s++|Cl[R]d:m49r++|1s O:d---:s:?o:a+:h+:x? P:a++:s:w:f:eB:hBl+:t-:cWh:*Cn:x+:r+|+

	03-12-2000 10:53									#28
	Inflate your Upload Space

Does anyone else find it incredibly annoying that by the end of the game, fungus is better than nearly anything else, especially if you have the MH? I terriform like mad...by the end of the game I usually have every square terriformed with my super clean formers, and the ugly red fungus makes all my hard work useless. The MH IMO is especially unbalancing...with a +3 green value you get 3 3 5 from a fungus square!!

	03-12-2000 12:49									#29
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

This is off-topic, but what production values could pine forests possible have in a hostile alien environment? Do they make wooden bases and units, or somehow or other extract some kind of plastic from the pulp? And pine cone nuts surely wouldn't be worthwhile farming for food, surely?

Bkeela.

	03-12-2000 18:15									#30
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Bkeela,

Forests can be rich and ecologically diverse. I think of forests as ranging from intensively harvested fruit groves to hardwood to quick-growth pine, or even tropical hardwoods. When you widen what a forest is it isn't too hard to think of ways that food (fruits) or food-like products (tea, coffee, pharmaceutical derivatives) might give you a nominal 'one' food. As for fiber products, walk through a store or where you live and observe how society uses paper and wood products. I think you'll find that wood plays a pivotal role even in heavily urbanized locations that are seemingly dominated by steel and concrete.

Also, Chiron is not hostile to plant live, just to animal (and human) life. Even with the lower partial pressure of carbon dioxide the trade off between high nitrogen and low carbon should come out in plant life's favor.

Hydro