06-01-2003 05:38									#31
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Theyre not *very* different, but i agree theyre not exactly along the same path. Kraken's main focus is attack, ranged and movement, which is a strange combination. And the dreadnaught's is attack, ranged and firepower, theyre similar enough to me...

	06-01-2003 05:41									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Martin the Dane Well actualy that was Maq's idea, and looking at it now, i'm not so sure, it depends on wether or not the Dreadnaught can attack Sea Colonies, it is a bit slower than the Kraken, so ther might be room for both in my navy.

When I looked at the CtP2 poster I noted a lower movement rate and a higher visibility radius, it seems the two units can have a different use, as they are both at the end of the tech tree I don't know if it is worth worrying about upgrading the Kraken. But why not?

	06-01-2003 05:44									#33
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If there wasnt an upgrade script i wouldnt bother disbanded my Kraken's for Dreadnaught's, but then again i dont think ive ever got that far. The player can always choose to skip this particular upgrade, but the AI will get it free, so you have to consider that. Dreadnaught is way better though, even if its slower.

	06-01-2003 05:52									#34
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quote: Originally posted by hexagonian But does the updater SLIC file (at least the version that Tamerlin is using) have the links to those messages? Dale didn't include the updater SLIC in the Apolyton Pack, but based on what he did in that file (APOL_main_str.txt), it looks like he had planned on it at some time.

The Update.slic I am working on is taken from the Cradle mod.

If it can ease the work to be done I can use the method you detailed in your earlier post :

1- Rename the CRA_Update_str.txt to APOL_Update_str.txt...

2- Then open the APOL_Strings.txt and add import "APOL_Update_str.txt" at the bottom.

3- Enable the slic file in the APOL_main.slc by adding the line #include "APOL_Update.slc".

4- (french version only) Copy the APOL_Strings.txt file with the added line and the translated APOL_update_str.txt file into the french folder.

	06-01-2003 05:54									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora If there wasnt an upgrade script i wouldnt bother disbanded my Kraken's for Dreadnaught's, but then again i dont think ive ever got that far. The player can always choose to skip this particular upgrade, but the AI will get it free, so you have to consider that. Dreadnaught is way better though, even if its slower.

You get the point. I edit my initial post just after I have finished to type my reply.

But believe me the AI won't have it for free, it will have to pay for it.

	06-01-2003 07:10									#36
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A little poll :

Do you want the Ship of the Line to be upgraded to the Ironclad?

	06-01-2003 07:53									#37
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What are the alternatives?

The easy to remember path would seem to be,

[... SOL > Ironclad > Battleship]
and
[Destroyer > Plasma Destroyer]

and use Destroyers as specialist air defence units at sea, because theyre both the same.

edit: the destroyers also have active defence, whereas the battleship does not.

Last edited by Maquiladora on 06-01-2003 at 08:12

	06-01-2003 09:09									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora What are the alternatives?

Either the Ship of the Line ends the following Upgrade Path:

Fire Trireme>Ship of the Line

Either the Ship of the Line is integrated in the following Upgrade Path:

Fire Trireme>Ship of the Line>Ironclad>Battleship>Plasma Destroyer

The Destroyer stays a Dead End unit. In my own opinion in Plasma Destroyer the word Destroyer is a misnomer as I don't think the Activision team has thought about the real classification of ships in the various navies.

quote: The destroyers also have active defence, whereas the battleship does not.

True but a more modern unit should be an improvement.

On the other hand the Destroyer could be upgraded to the Plasma Destroyer. Battleship and Destroyer could both be upgraded to Plasma Destroyer as it encompasses all the attributes of the former two ships.

What do you think about this intermediate solution and what the others are thinking about this?

	06-01-2003 09:27									#39
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Destroyer > Plasma Destroyer is one of the most obvious upgrades in the game to me, they both have unique abilities for sea units unlike any others, and theyre both called Destroyer, i think they intended this a natural upgrade path.

I prefer the Fire Trireme>Ship of the Line>Ironclad>Battleship, line too, for SOL.

Whether you want to have battleships to plasma destroyers too is upto you, but i think they have different abilities.

	06-01-2003 17:13									#40
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IMO, Ironclads shouldn't upgrade to Battleships. Sure, they are a direct line of naval evolution as it were, but the upgrade script is meant to simulate a re-fitting of weaponry. You can't make a wooden ship covered in iron carrying cannons, into an iron ship carrying the kind of weaponry the battleship does. It needs a whole new ship design.

Although, the AI does benefit greatly from it (possibly more greatly than any other upgrade, simply because of the sheer cost of a battleship)
- So is it possible to have two different upgrade paths? One for the AI (all necessary upgrades) and one for the human (realistic upgrades).

	06-01-2003 19:20									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat IMO, Ironclads shouldn't upgrade to Battleships. Sure, they are a direct line of naval evolution as it were, but the upgrade script is meant to simulate a re-fitting of weaponry. You can't make a wooden ship covered in iron carrying cannons, into an iron ship carrying the kind of weaponry the battleship does. It needs a whole new ship design.

This is what I think about the Ship of the Line upgrade to the Ironclad but I am rather reluctant to suppress the Ironclad upgrade to the Battleship. The first Battleships developped by the Royal Navy were close to the design of the Ironclads: steam powered, similar shape (just take out the sails and replace wood with iron plates) though really much bigger. Look at some pictures of the First World War (if you are a tabletop gamer look at the covers of "The Great War at Sea" wargame serie published by Avalanche Press) and you will see what I mean.

Upgrading the Ironclad to the Battleship would also help simulate the short lifespan these ships had in our history.

quote: Although, the AI does benefit greatly from it (possibly more greatly than any other upgrade, simply because of the sheer cost of a battleship) - So is it possible to have two different upgrade paths? One for the AI (all necessary upgrades) and one for the human (realistic upgrades).

Interesting idea but the code must be altered and I know nothing of Slic programming.

	06-01-2003 19:46									#42
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If we are talking realism, it is easier form a shipbuilding perspective to clad a wooden hul with iron plates and insert a steam engine (btw. some later wooden warships did have steam engines) than it is to replace the wooden parts of an ironclad with steel.

So from a realism perspective the only upgrade of ships should be Ship of the Line to Ironclad. All the other upgrades requires replacing the hull, wich is not very realistic.

I'm not saying we should stick to realism.

If the unit system had been similar to the SMAC system the upgrades would me much more logical, there you could upgrade armor, engin, weapons etc, but not the "chasis". Well that's not the case but the idea that you could upgrade any foot-soldier to any other higher foot-soldier etc. would be nice, if the AI could be taught how to use it wisely.

	06-01-2003 20:05									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Martin the Dane If we are talking realism, it is easier form a shipbuilding perspective to clad a wooden hul with iron plates and insert a steam engine (btw. some later wooden warships did have steam engines) than it is to replace the wooden parts of an ironclad with steel.

I don't think any Ironclad has been built by simply adding iron plates on a ship of the line.

quote: So from a realism perspective only the upgrade of ships should be Ship of the Line to Ironclad. All the other upgrades requires replacing the hull, wich is not very realistic.

OK, I edit my initial post to show a Ship of the Line can be upgraded to Ironclad...

quote: I'm not saying we should stick to realism.

Which is impossible as far as simulation games are concerned as they must also be fun and balanced. So the Ironclad will upgrade to Battleship... Non mais!

quote: If the unit system had been similar to the SMAC system the upgrades would me much more logical, there you could upgrade armor, engin, weapons etc, but not the "chasis". Well that's not the case but the idea that you could upgrade any foot-soldier to any other higher foot-soldier etc. would be nice, if the AI could be taught how to use it wisely.

I think a little slic programming is needed to achieve this result for CtP2...

	06-01-2003 22:02									#44
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Dale is working on something similar, though less detailed in his AoM mod. Upgrade bit-by-bit, using the same sprite, name and so forth.

	06-01-2003 22:19									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Dale is working on something similar, though less detailed in his AoM mod. Upgrade bit-by-bit, using the same sprite, name and so forth.

Usually I don't like to play against an AI which is not applying the same rules as the Human player though I understand the AI must be allowed to cheat if we want it to be a worthy opponent.

I would prefer to double the cost of the Upgrades for the Human Player as we are, hopefully, better managing our economical resources and are thus generating far more money than the AI. But I have not the lesser idea on how it can be achieved.

	06-01-2003 23:01									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin I suppose I still have to enable the Updater and add the line #include "APOL_Update.slc" at the end of the APOL_script.slc file.

Yes you only have to add the slic file, because the strings are already in the database.

quote: Originally posted by hexagonian But does the updater SLIC file (at least the version that Tamerlin is using) have the links to those messages? Dale didn't include the updater SLIC in the Apolyton Pack, but based on what he did in that file (APOL_main_str.txt), it looks like he had planned on it at some time.

If he uses the Cradle version as a base then it has all the same features as the Cradle version, only the Strings that fill the message boxes with text must be somewhere in the string database.

quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin The Update.slic I am working on is taken from the Cradle mod. If it can ease the work to be done I can use the method you detailed in your earlier post : 1- Rename the CRA_Update_str.txt to APOL_Update_str.txt... 2- Then open the APOL_Strings.txt and add import "APOL_Update_str.txt" at the bottom. 3- Enable the slic file in the APOL_main.slc by adding the line #include "APOL_Update.slc". 4- (french version only) Copy the APOL_Strings.txt file with the added line and the translated APOL_update_str.txt file into the french folder.

No need to steps 1, 2 and 4 of course if there is no line
import "APOL_main_str.txt"
in your version of the APOL_string.txt then you have to add this line (of course you need the file you already have translated) like it was doen in the English and the German version of this file. Note I would always start with the unmodified French version of the String.txt, because this file could contain more file imports then the English version.

-Martin

	06-01-2003 23:41									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann Done! [Quote]No need to steps 1, 2 and 4 of course if there is no line import "APOL_main_str.txt" in your version of the APOL_string.txt then you have to add this line (of course you need the file you already have translated) like it was doen in the English and the German version of this file. Note I would always start with the unmodified French version of the String.txt, because this file could contain more file imports then the English version.

I have checked my CtP2 files and the APOL_main_str.txt is already included in the english and french folders.

So I just have to enable the APOL_update.slic file in APOL_main.slc which has already been done in a copied version of this later file. I will test the APOL_update.slc using your method and use Hexagonian's one if the messages are not displayed.

Thanks again for your help Martin.

	07-01-2003 00:50									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin I will test the APOL_update.slc using your method and use Hexagonian's one if the messages are not displayed.

If there is a string missing then you get a error message, so you will notice it eraly enough.

-Martin

	07-01-2003 00:59									#49
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I thought there was a Unit Updater for it already

	07-01-2003 02:53									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Pedrunn I thought there was a Unit Updater for it already

The text strings have been included by Dale but there is no updater slic file enabled in the SAP2.

I would like to adapt the CRA_update.slc to the Super Apolyton Pack hence the discussion about the update paths and the way to implement the slic file into the SAP2.

I am about to start working on the slic file that should be ready very soon, as soon as I have the time to work on it actually. Most of the prelimanary work has already been done...

	07-01-2003 17:03									#51
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Preparation work ended, I will start working on the slic file tonight...

	07-01-2003 17:21									#52
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sorry to bother you again Hexagonian but I have a last question:

Does the Updater.slc supercedes the general conditions required to buid a unit. For example: would the Updater allow you to upgrade a Cleric to a Televangelist while your empire is not under a Theocracy. If it were the case I would not allow this kind of upgrade and revert the Cleric and the Televangelist to Dead End units.

	07-01-2003 17:30									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin sorry to bother you again Hexagonian but I have a last question: Does the Updater.slc supercedes the general conditions required to buid a unit. For example: would the Updater allow you to upgrade a Cleric to a Televangelist while your empire is not under a Theocracy. If it were the case I would not allow this kind of upgrade and revert the Cleric and the Televangelist to Dead End units.

It wont matter because you have to be in Theocracy to start with to build and maintain both units. If you change governments the clerics and televangelists disband automatically anyway, so they cant be upgraded afterwards.

If thats what you meant.

	07-01-2003 17:40									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora If thats what you meant.

Yes Maquiladora, I have never used the Theocracy as a government for my empire but I should have figured it anyway. Thanks for your answer.

	08-01-2003 05:02									#55
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I have modified the Updater.slc file and tested it with my current CtP2 game after having reloaded the slic files and it runs fine.



You were right Martin, you just need to enable the new slic file in APOL.main.slc and the Updater runs with the Super Apolyton Pack 2.

I will create a new thread as soon as I write a little read me... tomorrow.



As the units can only be upgraded in the turn the advance enabling the upgrade is discovered, is there any mean to create an option in the unit menue in order to ask for a unit to be updated after the turn of the said discovery?

	08-01-2003 10:16									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin sorry to bother you again Hexagonian but I have a last question: Does the Updater.slc supercedes the general conditions required to buid a unit. For example: would the Updater allow you to upgrade a Cleric to a Televangelist while your empire is not under a Theocracy. If it were the case I would not allow this kind of upgrade and revert the Cleric and the Televangelist to Dead End units.

Hmm, never tried it as I didn't upgrade gov-specific units or unconventionals. Give it a test though.

	08-01-2003 19:01									#57
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quote: Originally posted by hexagonian Hmm, never tried it as I didn't upgrade gov-specific units or unconventionals. Give it a test though.

I will start a new game this week-end and see how the APOL updater runs in the long term...