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Maquiladora
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Mounted archers shouldnt be upgraded to Cavalry, thats too easy and mounted archers arent flankers either.
Mounted archers should be a dead end, warriors to infantrymen is... too weird. Id have warriors upgradable to samurai then a dead end, or if not that then warriors should be dead end too.
Everything else i agree with Martin.
Is Longship named Drakkar on the french version?
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Maquiladora
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin the Dane
Maq you have a point concerning Mounted Archers' lack of flanking ability, but if the price is high enough? |
A high enough price would certainly even out the power of this upgrade, but it still looks abit weird. Add to this that mounted archers only ever get used as either scouting units or fast ranged partners for knights or samurai, and knights upgrade to cavalry already so, this upgrade wouldnt be my choice...
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Samurais have a major weakness when used as scouting units, beside being quite expensive: They lack the virion range. Personally I'm not sure I would make the upgrade. |
Yeah thats why i wasnt sure, but if we try to keep with (slightly obscure) historical accuracy, warriors to samurai just fits nicely, although both have very different uses in the game, especially as samurai are special forces aswell. (not that anyone changes their military readiness settings)
So Warriors dead end and Samurai dead end, to keep the game more focused on unit uses, which is more sensible for gameplay.
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My reasoning for upgrading Wariors to Infantrymen is that Wariors have the same function as Infantrymen, but I do agree that it's a bit strange to make that jump. |
Well the warrior is an attack unit (albeit a crap one) and infantry is defensive, so id go for warriors as a dead end again.
I wouldnt have upgrades for non-combat units either. Upgrading a settler to a urban planner your buying 2 pop points, you could build loads of settlers then upgrade when you get urban planners.
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Tamerlin
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Toulouse (South-western France)
Apr 2002
time: 06:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Maquiladora
A high enough price would certainly even out the power of this upgrade, but it still looks abit weird. Add to this that mounted archers only ever get used as either scouting units or fast ranged partners for knights or samurai, and knights upgrade to cavalry already so, this upgrade wouldnt be my choice... |
Your choice would then be a shorter Update Path like :
Archer>Mounted Archer
quote:
Yeah thats why i wasnt sure, but if we try to keep with (slightly obscure) historical accuracy, warriors to samurai just fits nicely, although both have very different uses in the game, especially as samurai are special forces aswell. (not that anyone changes their military readiness settings)
So Warriors dead end and Samurai dead end, to keep the game more focused on unit uses, which is more sensible for gameplay. |
Warrior and Samurai are now dead end units. 
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I wouldnt have upgrades for non-combat units either. Upgrading a settler to a urban planner your buying 2 pop points, you could build loads of settlers then upgrade when you get urban planners. |
You are right for the Settler>Urban planner Update Path, I have overlooked this fact and I have removed it.
For the other civilian units I am more reserved, I can't see why you could not upgrade a Diplomat to an Empathic Diplomat. 
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Maquiladora
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Heres probabaly what i would go with, not exactly flowing but...
code:
[start] Hoplite >>> Pikemen >>> Infantryman [end]
[start] Machine Gunner >>> Marine [end]
[start] Paratrooper >>> Hover Infantry [end]
[start] Archer >>> Mounted Archer [end]
[start] Samurai >>> Cavalry >>> Tank >>> Fusion Tank [end]
[start] Knight >>> Cavalry >>> . . . (as above) [end]
[start] Fire Trireme >>> Ship of the Line >>> Destroyer >>> Battleship >>> Plasma Destroyer [end]
[start] Ironclad >>> Submarine >>> Nuclear Sub. >>> Morey Striker [end]
[start] Kraken >>> Dreadnaught [end]
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Tamerlin
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Toulouse (South-western France)
Apr 2002
time: 06:24
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quote:
Originally posted by hexagonian
I have not played the default game for over 2 years now, so I cannot recall just how much gold is generated, but I do recall it was a lot. |
Quite high for the human player, I don't know if the AI can generate a similar amount of money but gold is flowing near the end of the game...
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I do feel that Rush Buying should be hard - if used, it should save a few turns but not a lot, and it should be used sparingly. I pushed it higher in Cradle across the board because that was the easiest way to make it tougher.
It does depend on what you are comfortabe with. Upgrading costs should put a dent in your gold though, so you may want to leave it alone.
You may want to test it with just the upgrade costs alone, but ask the question while playing... 'Is it still too easy to both upgrade units and consistently rush buy'? |
When I consider the amount of money I have at my disposal in my current game I guess leaving the game unchanged can unbalance a few things.
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In setting up my files, I tried to make it so I could not do both - so now I save my gold for upgrading and rush buy very rarely - and its based solely on emergency when I do.
Now I build a lot of caravans/gold enhancements because I need to. |
I think I will test two settings :
Rush Buy x6
Rush Buy x8
One of the goal I am targetting for the updater is to get rid off the burden of "manually" upgrade the units scattered throughout my empire having to move them physically where they must replace another unit that will be disbanded.
The Rush Buy setting I will choose is the setting that will even the earn benefit but will not hinder the player to the point he can't upgrade its units. But you are right, I won't appreciate a game becoming too easy because of the possibility to update units.
By the way, I am sorry to bother you with this but I have a few questions left:
1 - I have had a better look to the "code" part of the slic file and I have noted the UnitDB of the Coracle is named UNIT_CORACLE in the CRA_Updater where the APOL_gl_str.txt shows a UNIT_CATAMARAN which must be called "Coracle". 
I suppose I must base my work on the strings as they are named in the said APOL_gl_str.txt
2 - In the texts appearing in the message boxes, Peter Trigg is using the word "kill" while speaking about units on the field or in the Production Queue, I suppose it must be understood as "Disband" or "Remove"...
Thanks again for your help. 
Last edited by Tamerlin on 05-01-2003 at 16:30
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Tamerlin
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Toulouse (South-western France)
Apr 2002
time: 06:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin the Dane
I have some troubles keeping up with the pace of the thread today as I have my seven years old kid for the week end and until 8 p.m tonight, I will caught up this night.
[QUOTE]I don't like the Samurai becomming Cavalery, it just don't seem right. |
I would let Samurai as a Dead End, it is a very specific and limited use unit.
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Maybe let them upgrade to Machine Gunner, they are foot soldiers. |
It would be my choice.
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And I would never upgrade all my Paratroopers to Hover Infantry, They have distinct roles on the batlefield. |
I agree with you Martin, I see Hover Infantry as the ultimate development of foot units.
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Finaly I don't see how Ironclad upgrades to submarines, Ironclads were far from stealthy, as they were an upgrade on the Ship of the Line (in real history) though not all navies ever used them. Correct me if I'm wrong but IIRC they never realy became an important part of naval combat. |
They have had a very short lifespan and proved clumsy on the battlefield and were quickly replaced by the battleship they were the ancestors of though Hexagonian allows for the replacement of the Ironclad by the Submarine. As far as I am concerned I would let the Update Path "as is".
quote:
[CODE]
[start] Hoplite >>> Pikemen >>> Infantryman [end]
[start] Archer >>> Infantryman[end]
[start] Samurai >>> Machine Gunner >>> Marine [end]
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My main concern is I would like the updater to ease the flow of the game, this is why I would like the Infantryman to be replaced by the Machine Gunner and then the Machine Gunner by the Marine as they are available when you have many cities and many units to update. You could reply, and you would be right, that they don't have exactly the same role as the Machine Gunner is a defensive unit and the Marine an offensive one. I would let the Samurai a dead end unit as it is a special offensive unit where the Machine Gunner is a defensive modern unit. The abilities of the Marine allow it to fulfill both roles.
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[start] Mounted Archer >>> Cavalry >>> Tank >>> Fusion Tank [end]
[start] Knight >>> Cavalry >>> . . . (as above) [end]
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My initial post has been edited and corrected to include this new path.
Btw, do you prefer me to send a new post when I have made some corrections in order to spot mthe said corrections more easiliy?
quote:
[start] Fire Trireme >>> Ship of the Line >>> Ironclad [end]
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Though it sounds odd to me, I can modify the Upgrade Path so the Ship of the Line can upgrade to the Ironclad if a majority of you is OK.
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[start] Destroyer >>> Battleship >>> Plasma Destroyer [end]
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I still think the Ironclad should upgrade to the Battleship as it is clearly the ancestor of the Battleship.
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[start] Coracle >>> Longship >>> Carrack( >>> Troop Ship) [end]
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Already included in the update path...
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[start] Kraken >>> Dreadnaught [end]
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I have wondered for a while in my first worksheet if the Kraken should be upgraded to the Dreadnought, their different abilities (attack, defense...) seemed to point at the contrary, but if a majority agree I will correct my initial post.
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A final note I think upgrade could/should be a build order. |
I am not a slic programmer and I really don't know how it can be done. 
Remember my main goal is to ease the flow of the game and that I don't want to move tens of units on the map to reach the replacement area.
quote:
Or make disbanding units within cities contribute to production of units. |
You are right but this is a more general modification of the game which is beyond the scope of the Updater.
See you after 8 p.m.
Last edited by Tamerlin on 06-01-2003 at 02:45
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Maquiladora
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin the Dane
I don't like the Samurai becomming Cavalery, it just don't seem right. Maybe let them upgrade to Machine Gunner, they are foot soldiers. |
I just copied this from civ3  I didnt really like to see so many units at a dead end. Theres alot of distinct units you can say would never upgrade to another, because theyre from different parts of the world.
quote:
And I would never upgrade all my Paratroopers to Hover Infantry, They have distinct roles on the batlefield. |
I would never build paratroopers full stop, but just a gameplay issue to make humans build paratroopers. In fact all the lines are really with gameplay in mind...
quote:
Finaly I don't se how Ironclad upgrades to submarines, Ironclads were far from stealthy, as they were an upgrade on the Ship of the Line (in real history) thogh not all navies ever used them. Correct me if I'm wrong but IIRC they never realy became an important part of naval combat. |
The shape and form of an ironclad is very reminiscent of early submarines, i dont think submarines wouldve looked exactly as they do without the ironclad "phase".
I also did this because i never build ironclads. The science speed is often so fast at that stage that you totally bypass ironclads and can wait easily for submarines, and just keep ship of the line until then. I see ironclads as the start of a different kind of naval unit.
quote:
A final note I think upgrade could/should be a build order. Or make disbanding units within cities contribute to production of units. |
Actually if you right click and disband a unit thats inside a city the production will go to the item currently on the build queue, but theres yet to be an updater code to upgrade a unit this way.
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05-01-2003 03:17
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