05-01-2003 04:51									#1
	Eager to talk about MOO. IFPs. Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Since I really weanted to talk about MOO, then lets moo...

We all know that imperial focus points (IFPs) were put out because they were making things more complicated instead of puting out micro-management. Just got a very simple idea.

Instead of giving imperial focus points, maybe instead the game (like in MOO4, in year 2020) could permit you only to make a limited number of micro-management things, based on the situation.
Exemples:
- You're at war, you may do more war-related micro-management.
- You have a civil war, then you can micro-manage domestic stuff where the war is, etc.).
- You have a wider territory, you'll by default get more macro, less micro.

By doing so, you would be permitted to micro-manage when you really need it, and you wouldn't otherwise. What's the use? Well the AI would be balanced correspondingly, MP players would not be disadvantaged by macro-management, etc. Of course, this thing could also be a simple option, espescially for MP.

Would something likme that be nice?

EDIT: I'm not talking of a time limit here. I'm talking about some managing panels beeing simply CLOSED, like IFPs were also closing some management capacity.

Last edited by Trifna on 05-01-2003 at 11:20

	05-01-2003 05:12									#2
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No, time limits just don't belong in TBS games IMO.
I'd be fine with a concept like IFP's though.

	05-01-2003 10:20									#3
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time limit:
IFP: (with the ability to turn it off)

	05-01-2003 11:26									#4
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I'm not talking of a time limit here. I'm talking about some managing panels beeing simply CLOSED, like IFPs were also closing some management capacity.

Exemple:
You have a pretty large territory, so in normal conditions you will be able to do macro-management but micro will automatically be let to governors. A civil war happens on planet named Yulu 3, then you are permitted to manage some more micro on Yulu 3's domestic administration. Otherwise, you couldn't at all.

	05-01-2003 12:35									#5
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It was my understanding that the whole point of IFPs was that they would allow the player to do only a small ammount of micro-management.

	05-01-2003 12:51									#6
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quote: Originally posted by deamon451 It was my understanding that the whole point of IFPs was that they would allow the player to do only a small ammount of micro-management.

Yes but they didn't made it to the final cut since it was making things more complicated instead of less for the player : the player needed to considerate, of all possible acts, which one he should do, thus look at all micro to then decide which to do.

Comparatively, my way here doesn't oblige to decide which move you'll do since the program decides for the player of which micro-management is worth beeing done. The rest is closed to the player. Of course, it implies a good management by the AI.

	05-01-2003 12:53									#7
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Yep,
every turn you would get a limited number of IFPs which you could spend in that turn for things like viewing or leading battles, micromanaging planets and spaceships and so on.

All other Planets you weren´t able to micromanage could be managed to issue general policies to planetary and sector governors.

One question remains, though (which is purely hypothetical, because IFPs were cut).
Was the amount of IFPs dependend on Empire-Size, i.e. do you get more IFPs as your Empire grows in size, or would you have some Bulidings which would generate IFPs, or would the IFPs remain the same throughout the game?

	05-01-2003 16:46									#8
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No-no-no!! It's not what I mean!!


Difference with the IFP system:
ISP: You have a certain number of pts to use where you want
My idea: You have no point, just a blocked access to complete sections. No choice to go here or there. Or it's open, or it's blocked. Huge empire = more micro-management blocked sections. You go more macro.

	05-01-2003 17:26									#9
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Nope, that doesn´t suit my playing style very much.

IFPs would be one thing where I could live with,
cos I could still determine, which area I want to micromanage and which not.

But letting the Computer determine, which areas you can micromanage and which not, wouldn´tplease me very much.

If there would be a switch to turn it of, I would rarely (almost never) play with this feature activated

Maybe it´s because I am one of those guys who tend to appreciate micromanagement very much

	05-01-2003 17:54									#10
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quote: EDIT: I'm not talking of a time limit here. I'm talking about some managing panels beeing simply CLOSED, like IFPs were also closing some management capacity.

I would still like to have some influence in which areas are closed, for example it could depend on your government, if it's militaristic, you can micro more military.

	05-01-2003 23:40									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST One question remains, though (which is purely hypothetical, because IFPs were cut). Was the amount of IFPs dependend on Empire-Size, i.e. do you get more IFPs as your Empire grows in size, or would you have some Bulidings which would generate IFPs, or would the IFPs remain the same throughout the game?

The way it worked before they were cut, you get a number of IFP's and that's that. A few things could increase or decrease IFP's over time, like possibly a tech to give you one extra IFP, or a change in goverment to a type that allows more or less IFP's, but empire size was not a factor in number of IFP's.

It was as much a limiter of larger empires (hand in hand with HFOG) as it was a limiter of micromanagement.

	06-01-2003 22:36									#12
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Well with this way, the game would slowly change. MOO at the beginning wouldn't be the same game than MOO at the end. At the beginning it would be local administration and at the end alot more macro (at which point stil needs to be seen).

	07-01-2003 02:48									#13
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In the same cut list as IFPs was a note that the AI would no longer be able to move your ships for you. Apparently the AI used to have the ability to move ships from one system to another to make sure there weren't any gaps in the player's defenses. ( or something like that )

Apparently the AI wasn't up to speed or players REALLY didn't like having the ships shuffled around like that. This means that all fleet movements must now be controlled by the player.

If you had to spend IFPs to control fleet movements then you can bet that was one of the items that led to the IFP demise. It's also one of the reasons why I wouldn't like to see time limits on the game. If your empire grows large enough then you could spend all your time doing fleet movements. Does anyone know if Moo3 will have relocation lines?

Actually I'd be a little disturbed if of my space battles were directed by the AI. In Moo2 I saw my ships do some incredibly stupid things after I hit the "auto" button.

	07-01-2003 05:24									#14
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I'd be flamed if my ships starting moving around against my wishes. If I want to send a huge fleet against a troublesome world, I don't want to be chasing ships all over my territory or trying to time them to all port at the same time. Imagine if you had to use IFPs to gather ships while your home world falls into decay...

	07-01-2003 09:38									#15
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Seeing how long the game has been postponed makes me happy for not seeing IFPs in the game...

	07-01-2003 10:11									#16
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Well, I think the real problem is just that Quicksilver didn't get enough IFPs from infogrames to complete Moo3 on time.

	07-01-2003 19:06									#17
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The game has reduced the number of screens down a huge amount. Sounds like a lot of the micro-micro-management is no longer possible at all, by anyone. So there's less need for IFP's. Conversely people were getting very annoyed that certain game staples, like fleet movement, was being handled by the AI leading to ships not being where you wanted them when you were ready to spend IFP's gathering and launching your attack fleet. Nice idea that didn't really work in practice.

I can see the same flaws with this new idea. The first thing player A may want to do when war breaks out is micromanage shifting his whole economy over to fleet production. That may mean changing government, altering agriculture or mining. Goodness knows what. They're not going to be happy if "civilian" panels are no longer available.

	07-01-2003 20:15									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Kc7mxo Well, I think the real problem is just that Quicksilver didn't get enough IFPs from infogrames to complete Moo3 on time.

LOL

Asmodean

	07-01-2003 20:35									#19
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I guess there are some things that can't be done other than by the player, like attacks and fleet moves. Things that are too important can be considered as macro too. I was talking alot more about administration.

Passing from micro to macro would be to pass from "build THIS ship, and this one, and this other" to "50% oriented towards these kinda ships, 30% to these, 20% the rest" or something like that. (Like 50% expansion, 30% military, 20% trading, or stuff like that)