05-01-2003 06:36									#1
	Turn 25 Inflate your Upload Space

Preparing the turn, for discussions:

Movement:
- Grog goes 8, on the hill opposite to Thadeus.
- Slash goes 7, continuing the approach to the isthmus.
- Hack goes 4 and should see Tim again.
- Ouch proceeds 8. Willy won't be visible yet, but the odds, that he goes on the mountain in front of his nose, are nearly 100%, so that we'll see him probably next turn again.

Worker:
Should have finished the irrigation of the floodplain and begins to road it.

Sliders:
Science can be lowered to 80% for the next 2 turns without slowing Pottery. New setting will be 2.8.0.

Production in the cities:
We still haven't made the laborer change between fur forest and irrigated fur plains between EotS and Hurricane. DeepO asked me to delay it last turn, which I did. Economic Schola, please discuss this out, if possible before the turn arrives, and try to get a consensus.

Your opinions?

	05-01-2003 06:44									#2
	Tired of ads?

I'm not inclined to accept any plan that compromises EotS's growth, but I have no objection to waiting another turn to have Hurricane use the irrigated fur to allow more time for discussion and experimentation. No objections to the other proposed moves.

Nathan

	05-01-2003 06:53									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

You should discuss that matter out with DeepO. But I'm seriosly worried. A territory map is nothing worth in SP, but it is worth a lot in MP. Do you keep that in mind, when you are opposing any plan that could get us rid of the spies for the cost of a few measly shields?

	05-01-2003 07:05									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

Any bets on which turn war will break out? I say turn 29...




Dominae

	05-01-2003 07:18									#5
	Put an end to popups!

Should we go for a public spin on this?
Or should try to keep this among us?

Vox might be lacking on game quality, but are doing a more then good job on the diplomacy part up to now...

Any good spin docters in the house??

	05-01-2003 16:54									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

It turns out that DeepO's plan only worked as designed because of a bug in the test scenario. The test scenario gives us one more shield than we're supposed to have, and with that corrected, there is not enough time to finish our granary early. So we definitely go with the plan that calls for having Hurricane borrow an irrigated fur for a turn.

Nathan

	05-01-2003 17:01									#7
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph You should discuss that matter out with DeepO. But I'm seriosly worried. A territory map is nothing worth in SP, but it is worth a lot in MP. Do you keep that in mind, when you are opposing any plan that could get us rid of the spies for the cost of a few measly shields?

I would vote for any plan that gets us rid of their units behind the isthmus, i simply hate this situation, if they can scout out all the land near us, they will see when and where we will plant the future cities. And we cant see theirs, this is a big dis-advantage to us. We will have to only guess whats happening out there, and they'll have the exact knowledge.

	05-01-2003 17:06									#8
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: they will see when and where we will plant the future cities

And this will last the whole game, unless we can take them out before mapmaking....

	05-01-2003 17:51									#9
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay It turns out that DeepO's plan only worked as designed because of a bug in the test scenario. The test scenario gives us one more shield than we're supposed to have, and with that corrected, there is not enough time to finish our granary early. So we definitely go with the plan that calls for having Hurricane borrow an irrigated fur for a turn.

Indeed... I hadn't notice the bug. Otherwise we could have gotten around it, by using a forest last turn. Oh well, so be it. Other tests are being prepared, for the moment race towards a granary, and a warrior in Hurricane.

Oh. And a screenshot of the power graph please, it's our best bet on finding out more about Vox' military strength.

DeepO

	05-01-2003 17:57									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Has anyone actually gamed out an intercept on their warriors? I tried an experiment using Storm spearmen (added using debug mode) to play the role of Voxian warriors, and we can't get viable intercepts even using only two warriors until they get practically to our borders. And that can be done only by stripping our cities of defenders.

	05-01-2003 18:19									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

We should be making short <------------->to long term plans though.

We are doing too much ad hoc ATM...

We turned it into a tactical game instead of a strategical. Granted, lots of thing have happened over the last few turns, but stil...

We will start to make mistakes sooner or later.
Maybe the granary bug was just the first sign of it.
Gettings things done in the nick of time is a dangerous way to live, I should know, I've been doing so as long as I can remember

Last edited by alva on 05-01-2003 at 18:26

	05-01-2003 18:22									#12
	Tired of ads?

As i said, we can intercept at least one of their warriors, with two or three warriors of our own, this might hold them, in the hope that the other warrior doesn't get two close as well- i'd heartedly support such course of action should the Vox keep moving their scouts south, while blocking the isthmus. We must do whatever we can attack their eastern warrior- the one with the best chances of reaching our cities, while hoping the second warrior takes a south-western, or at least southern course, and won't reach our cities in time- before couple of ours can take him out as well. The best thing that can happen in this scenario is that after we take out one of their warriors they freak out and turn back- but that's unlikely.

	05-01-2003 18:45									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I wouldn't be opposed to take one out..
My guess would be the other warrior will fortify on a mountin somwhere. Just to make it expensive to get to him while be able to have a nice view on troop movement.

	05-01-2003 18:49									#14
	Got spare money?

Turn is here. Tim went 2, after I moved Hack, I can see him again. Willi is invisible, probably at the mountain. Thadeus remained fortified.

I would make our turn, with 1 change. Slash goes 4 instead of 7. That does not slow his approach to the isthmus, but lets him use the mountain next turn.

We can't make the fur tile switch yet this turn. If we do so, we lose one science, because 1 gold is wandering to Hurricane and the city starts to give a tax instead of a 3rd science, while in EotS the science is reduced. I played a bit with the sliders and the switch. We have 18 beakers to go. My proposal:

This turn: We leave all where it is, making 11 beakers.
Next turn: We switch the tiles, set sliders to 4.6.0 and make 7 beakers.

This way we end up with a gold reserve of 9 and no beaker will be wasted.

Objections?

	05-01-2003 18:55									#15
	Put an end to popups!

Team stats:

51 (+2) Gathering Storm
62 (+2) Demogyptica
56 (+2) Glory of War
57 (+2) Role Play
54 (+1) Vox Controli
49 (0 ) Lux Invicta
57 (+1) Legoland

	05-01-2003 18:57									#16
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I'm still opposed to any aggresion, before we try to get things right diplomatically. But I agree, on a middle long term planning, we need to build up our military.

Oh, and the granary bug was unfortunate, but no mistake was made: so far we have been careful that everything can be undone. However, I don't like how we are planning it either, but frankly don't see any option given the past few hectic turns. Too much has happened. Maybe it is best if from now on we take longer on our turns, thus slowing the game down... don't forget we agreed on a 24-hour limit, the timecounter is just some play-thing.

DeepO

	05-01-2003 18:58									#17
	Remove this text

No objection on the slider things. At least not from here

DeepO

	05-01-2003 19:00									#18
	Support Apolyton

But one thing: what about holding the turn until we send a message to Vox, so we are sure they receive it, and if they agree, can move Thadeus?

DeepO

	05-01-2003 19:09									#19
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

The timecounter is widely accepted. We would be not wise to be the only civ that ignores it. What we should do is to prepare our turns better, instead of discussing, when the turn is here.

And the last turns weren't hectic. Yes, it happened a lot, but if you consider the city production and science, we changed nothing of our previous plans.

Is does not make sense to wait if Thadeus moves yet. With this turn, we reach the hill. Only next turn we could step on the isthmus.

	05-01-2003 19:13									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

if we want to move next turn, Thadeus has to be gone. That's why we need a message across before they played their turn, otherwise me lose a turn no matter the outcome of the negotation.

DeepO

BTW: timecounter: sure, it is widely accepted, but it is no reason for us to do something too fast when we can take our time.

	05-01-2003 19:43									#21
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Sir Ralph, if you use the fur forest along the river instead of one of the other ones, EotS should not lose any commerce.

	05-01-2003 20:04									#22
	Put an end to popups!

You are right, I overlooked it.

Update: We make the switch for this turn and switch back the next. Sliders go to 2.8.0 for both turns. That gives us 9 beakers each turn and we end up with Pottery in 2 turns and 10 (instead of 9) gold.

	05-01-2003 20:48									#23
	Support Apolyton

Turn is done, but I delay to send it due to the request from the diplomats. Summary:

- Grog went 8 on the hill.
- Slash went 4 and will move 4-8-8-8 next turns, blocking the isthmus too.
- Hack went 4 and sees Tim again.
- Ouch went 8. Willy is not yet visible, but will reappear soon.

1 irrigated fur plain in EotS switched to the fur forest near the river. Laborer in Hurricane switched to the freed tile. Next turn this will be taken back. Sliders set to 2.8.0. Pottery ready in 2 turns. Gold reserves: 4, making +3 each of the next 2 turns.

Screenshots are on the way.

	05-01-2003 23:45									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Do we still intend to research Bronze Working next, or do we still leave room for tech trades with Vox?

	06-01-2003 00:56									#25
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Turn sent

	06-01-2003 04:50									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Sir Ralph, please take a shot of the power graph, I find it more revealing then F11 at this point in the game!

DeepO

	06-01-2003 05:34									#27
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ok, sent

	06-01-2003 05:41									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Thanks!

What can be deduced from it (correct me if I'm wrong): Vox has settled its first settler (one turn BEFORE Hurricane), so can't move towards the Neck to build a city there fast. Further, I believe them to be at 4 military units, we are still in front on power, and the difference seem to be holding. The only explanation can be we have more troops, as we don't have any gold ourselves (and most likely, they don't have it either). Maybe they are at 3 troops, but I don't really buy that, so either they chooped too, or got a conscript warrior from a hut which is now defending their capital.

Oh, and most likely they haven't got IW yet, I would suspect a bump when their gold reserve gets augmented with the excess commerce from the slider. OTOH, there may not be any excess, or it could be masked in the settling.

I hope you agree this is valuable information (and correct ), so please include a screenie of the power graph in the following few turns, up until the point we can't deduce anything from it anymore.

DeepO

[edit: changed after into before. Sorry about that ]

	06-01-2003 06:02									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

DeepO, I concur in your analysis that they presumably have four warriors. We're ahead by one warrior-sized blip in the graph. I also concur with the analysis that they probably settled their second city a turn before Hurricane (which is something I'd already suspected from a previous look at the power graph). The blip in the graph during the interim is too big for a warrior and too soon after their settler for a spearman even with a chop assist. (I do wonder, though, how the sizes of warrior blips, spearman blips, and immortal blips compare.)

I'm skeptical as to whether half a dozen gold or so would make a noticeable blip on the power graph. And in any case, if they're timing research the way Sir Ralph is timing ours (not waiting until the last minute to reduce the slider), even if there's a fair amount of gold left over, it won't come all at once.

Nathan

	06-01-2003 06:23									#30
	Suffering from ads?

The problem with these graphs is that they compare as a ratio what is actually two integer numbers. This is why the powergraph is only really useful as long as we haven't met too many civs. One of the results from this is that bumps will get smaller when time progresses, you can already see this happening with the 5 warriors we built.

The larger bump on the lower halve is certainly an extra city, as our city gave an equal bump the other direction. (nearly anyway, there might be a gold difference). But in general, we are still in front (I took a ruler to measure that, but still it's not perfect. Drawing a vertical line in a graphics program should be more accurate), which can only be accounted for by more military strength.

I'm not sure, but my guess is that spears and immortals give a higher bump then warriors, as in the explanation it says "military strength", and we know that in the military advisor this means not purely numbers, but real strength. But still, it's somewhat of a guess, only by building something other then warriors ourselves we'll see the difference.

You're right on how much of a blip gold would give, but absolutely nothing happened last turn. And yes, if they check each turn, and divide the excess, it would be hard to spot. I'd say: don't base any assumptions on this one, it's more like a hunch, an educated guess. The warriors and the city I'm sure of, not the tech.

DeepO