06-01-2003 08:06									#1
	Discussion: A Compromise to the Worker Integration Arguments Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I, for one, believe that the arguments concerning integrating workers into our cities have gone on for much too long. There have been many discussion threads, one senate bill, one executive veto, and one court case fighting against that veto, all of which are concerning worker integration. We need to make a plan for having workers join our cities. It needs to be a plan that makes sense and one that makes as many people happy as possible.

There are two sides in this argument: those who believe that we should have domestic workers join our cities first, and those who believe that we should have foreign workers join our cities first. Both sides of this debate have good arguments. I believe that a compromise between the two sides in this debate is needed to end the arguments, so that we can focus on more important things such as winning the game.

Here's my plan:

In order to please both sides in this argument, we should integrate both foreign and domestic workers into our cities.

For every 1 domestic worker we join into a city, we will also join 1 foreign worker into a city.

We will have the domestic workers join cities on the borders of our empire or join newly captured cities in order to lower the risks of culture flip.

We will have the foreign workers join interior cities, where there is virtually zero chance of culture flip.

We will integrate workers until we have approxamately 50 workers left, some of which will be foreign, and some of which will be domestic. These workers will be left to clear pollution, improve terrain around newly captured cities, and anything else which we need them for.

Hopefully, this compromise will help end this debate about worker integration.

	06-01-2003 08:36									#2
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No!

A reasonable approach is to predict the size pollution team we want expressed as worker units or WU's
(remember 1 national is 2 WU's and 1 foreigner is 1 WU)

First preferentially absorb nationals down to the desired WU level.

Next preferentially absorb foreigners down to the desired WU level

This leaves twice the desired WU strength which is probably about right since estimates are always low

Do furthur absorption on a case by case basis.

For talking purposes I suggest that the WU level required is enough to clean pollution from one grass/desert/plain/tundra + one hill/forest + one mountain tile.

This is 4 + 8 + 12 = 24 WU

So that means
Absorb nationals down to 12
Then
Absorb foreigners down to 24
Then re-evaluate based on pollution experience

	06-01-2003 13:42									#3
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Aye, this compromise mearly tries to appease what gets integrated at what time. It totally ignores the economic argument about integrating which set of workers provides the biggest monetary gain.

After listening to Shiber and Spiffor, and rechecking some of my theories, I don't think it really neccesarily matters at ALL at this point in time. My argument was we should keep foreign workers last, because we don't have to support them so it would be a better economic incentive.

This basically repeats what Spiffor originally posted in an argument. For every 2 foreign workers we integrate into a city, (providing they have tiles to work) they will at least generate the exact same net revenue as one national worker. If each foreign workers produces a minimum of 1 gold, that "cancels" support for one unit. Then the additional worker would provide the extra profit that the national worker would normally provide.

Now many may look at this and say "But WhiteBandit/Spiffor/Shiber/Someone else, look! You will lose twice as many foreign workers to acheive the same effect!" Yes we will! But remember, our national workers are TWICE as fast as foreign workers. So in essence, it doesn't matter whom we integrate first.

I know their may be some out there who are unhappy with this huge waste of time. I do apologize for being dense and basically dragging on a huge issue.

Shiber, I urge you to carry on with your original plan. And I urge everyone to drop this argument as it really doesn't matter at all who we integrate into cities. The overall effect will be exactly the same. (Nor do I think we need a bill to detail how workers should be integrated, I think Shiber knows well enough what type of worker to put in each city).

Respectfully,

WB

	08-01-2003 23:06									#4
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hi ,



have a nice day

	09-01-2003 21:13									#5
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Here is the "compromise" I suggest (actually, it's not a compromise, but the wisest decision economy-wise IMHO)

I estimate the need of workers for pollution-clearing / improving of conquered lands to be 30 natives or 60 slaves (Johncnunn estimates the needs to be 24 natives or 48 slaves)

Once all tiles are improved, I integrate nationals first, until we only have 30 nationals left. Then, I integrate all slaves. Easy ?

	09-01-2003 23:20									#6
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joncnunn's pollution WU estimate is probably high and mine higher up in this thread is probably low. But the concept is finally correct.

	09-01-2003 23:37									#7
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Well, the compromise bween 12 Native Workers and 24 Native workers would be 18 Native Workers.

Right now, our polution is minimial because we have NO metros, and in my experence a lot more polution is based more on population of the Metros than Factories until Mass Transit Systems are built.

	09-01-2003 23:46									#8
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Sounds good to me.
One point for keeping more workers than it appears we would need in the near future: as the game progresses, we'd obviously have more pollution to clean. Instead of joining as many workers as we can now and leaving us with a skeleton crew of workers for meeting our current needs (10-12 natives) and then build new workers as the need arises, we should keep 30 natives.
The rational behind this is: it is wrong to think that workers cost 10 shields to build. In reality, workers cost 10 shields or more. A city that produces 100 shields per turn that builds a workers will waste 90 shields that turn. So in essense, we should follow Spiffor's suggestion and keep 30 natives instead of keeping less now and relying on the possibility to build new workers later, because as I explained building workers in the modern age is highly wasteful.

	10-01-2003 00:38									#9
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hi ,

we should keep ALL native workers since polution is going to be on its way and new land shall be worked on in the future , .....

all foreign workers should join the cities , .....

have a nice day

	10-01-2003 00:39									#10
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If we integrate foreigners first, if we run into money problems we can eigther techwhore or sell luxuries, but we can cross that bridge when we come to it. If we're integrating civs we may fight again we should put an equal # in each city, to keep the happiness balanced.

	10-01-2003 01:04									#11
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , we should keep ALL native workers since polution is going to be on its way and new land shall be worked on in the future , ..... all foreign workers should join the cities , ..... have a nice day

We have 89 native workers. If we keep all of them, we'd have enough workers to clean 44.5 grass/desert/plain/tundra tiles, or 22.25 hill/forest tiles, or 14.83 mountain tiles, all in one turn, every turn.
Do you seriously expect that we'll be facing so much pollution?

	10-01-2003 01:13									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber We have 89 native workers. If we keep all of them, we'd have enough workers to clean 44.5 grass/desert/plain/tundra tiles, or 22.25 hill/forest tiles, or 14.83 mountain tiles, all in one turn, every turn. Do you seriously expect that we'll be facing so much pollution?

hi ,

yes , given the look of the size of our country , .....

we should think of the future , we shall have plenty of work for them , .....

have a nice day

	10-01-2003 01:14									#13
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I'm fairly sure that at the peak of our polution, we won't need more than 24 natives to clear polution every turn it appears even on bad random number generator rolls.

At Roadcages 12 natives, we'd be fine for now, but after much of the emipre reached pop 20, we would fairly often see polution linger when we get unlucky random number generator roles and if Ecology was too low a modern era priority, we may see a backlog in polution develop then.

At the 18 native level, there's a chance that a bad random number generator sequence might result in pollution carrying over for a second turn with much of the pop being 20 but it would be rare and wouldn't lead to a backlog developing.

	10-01-2003 01:19									#14
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On the plan to keep 30 natives, that's what we would need if we are planning more conquests than just Germany and putting up Factories there prior to Mass Transit being built in our core cities.

	10-01-2003 02:33									#15
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hi ,

its going to be a long time before we shall have public transportation and recycling centers , not to mention the other civs on the planet who shall put some polution in our direction , ....

have a nice day

	10-01-2003 02:49									#16
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Polution only appears within 3 tiles of the offending city; we only have to worry about AI cities very close to our borders causing polution inside our territory.

What's messured world wide that could cause harmful effects on us is global warming, but ire-irrigating a tile with irrigation that was changed via global warming is much cheaper than clearing polution.

	10-01-2003 04:58									#17
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Actually, I was in favor of keeping 30 natives, because improving all tiles around a conquered city takes approx 25 natives during 2 turns (based on a gross generalization of what we need for the next German cities we invade).
Time will tell how many natives we need. Shiber explained why producing workers in late industrial / modern times was a waste, so I prefer having too many natonals to begin with, and downsize them after (the other way around would be to waste a precious turn and it's 50 odd shields in a city to build a mere 10 shields worker)

	10-01-2003 05:05									#18
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Can someone tell me how many native & how many foreign workers there are in total?

	10-01-2003 05:06									#19
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82 natives
67 slaves, including

33 French
12 Persians
8 Babylonians
5 Americans
3 Greeks
3 Germans
2 English
1 Roman

You can see this information (as well as our population needs) in the Worker Integration Project thread. You can also see our immediate and longer term needs there.

	10-01-2003 21:16									#20
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In my games, there's very few tiles in conquered territory that need imporvements in the industrial era, but I don't destroy nearly as much improvements while conquering as is going on here.

	10-01-2003 21:37									#21
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My current pollution estimate at peak prior to mass transit is:

50 cities * (20 pop-12pop+2)/100 = 5 tiles per turn

Looking at our land mix, we are significantly grass/plains/etc rich so 6 WU /tile is conservitive but will use 7 WU /tile

5 * 7 =35 WU
or 35 foreign builts
or 17.5 say 18 nationals

	10-01-2003 21:43									#22
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Roadcage, I agree with your estimate but I still think we should keep 30 domestic workers around. We'll need some workers to improve conquered Germany (building railroads and such) and the SMC may ask to reserve some workers for tactical operations in the future. Better safe than sorry.

	10-01-2003 21:53									#23
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I have slightly different result than Roadcage.
We're blessed with cities that we will have a hard time keeping down to just 20 even mining all grassland tiles.

50 cities * (22 pop - 12 + 2) / 100 =

50 * 12 / 100 = 6 tiles per turn.

For 6 WU, we get 36 WU. 18 nationals.
For 7 WU, we get 42 WU. 21 nationals.
For 8 WU, get get 48 WU. 24 nationals.

I'm comfortable at the 6 WU/tile given the lay of the land.