06-01-2003 08:22									#1
	Poll: Minimap trades ASAP? Put an end to popups!

We originally wanted to keep our location secret to prevent anyone from having an opportunity to rush us early. I think we're now past a point where that is anything even close to a significant risk (especially from anyone but Vox), and that learning as much as we can about the world (and especially about Vox's mysterious neighbor) is far more important. The fact that Vox knows so much about us already serves only to make that even more true.

Do we want to instruct our ambassadors to trade minimaps with as many civs as possible as quickly as possible?

	06-01-2003 08:36									#2
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I "somewhat favor" it.

I'm still uncomfortable with the thought, but if VC proceeds exploring, our minimap will soon be nothing worth.

	06-01-2003 09:07									#3
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quote: our minimap will soon be nothing worth

I do think this is the key here.

As long as we had real fog of war, it' was invaluable. Now ,pfffff.
We can't be rushed except by vox, so yes, I think I am in favour.


And Vox's PoV, the moment they now where are border is, they will sell it!!
We do need to move fast IMO.

1.We are we talking about a blacked out map ?
2.or a geographical?
3.4000bc?
4.all teams?
5.??

( we could do some small size distortion btw, so other teams can't just copy/paste it on the world map.
borderline maybe, I know.)

	06-01-2003 09:22									#4
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I think what we want are trades of complete, current minimaps. (I wouldn't be averse to some way of masking city locations if anyone knows away to do so that wouldn't make the city locations obvious from the masking.) That's the best way of figuring out what kind of world we're in and who's probably met each other (at least out of the civs we have info from). I also think it's better if the maps are not tampered with in any way; don't we want to be able to piece together a complete map?

	06-01-2003 09:30									#5
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Could we put together a "no cities" minimap by piecing together a few saves (4000BC + before city 2 + current?) ?

	06-01-2003 09:54									#6
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quote: I also think it's better if the maps are not tampered with in any way; don't we want to be able to piece together a complete map?

Sorry, I meant when sending ours, it would make it more difficult for others to 'complete' their worldmap

Randolph, I don't quite follow you?

	06-01-2003 10:01									#7
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quote: Originally posted by alva Sorry, I meant when sending ours, it would make it more difficult for others to 'complete' their worldmap

If we want others to send unadulterated minimaps to us, we need to send unadulterated minimaps to them. Otherwise, we can expect the Lord of Storms (not to mention the other teams) to curse us.

Nathan

	06-01-2003 10:04									#8
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True, like I said, borderline
(I wouldn't have exagerated anyway, just a little.. call it a mercator projection )

are we going for all teams??

	06-01-2003 10:25									#9
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quote: Originally posted by alva are we going for all teams??

The more the merrier, as far as I'm concerned. That's how I worded the proposal.

	06-01-2003 15:16									#10
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If we trade minimaps, we should trade them with everyone at the same time. (even tho Vox seems to be campaigneing on that you can only talk to whom you have contacted in the game - i wonder why - maybe they know we are in isolated position, or have concluded so from us pressing so hard on the isthmus issue)

Trade minimaps ASAP - and with every team - since as stated here, soon it will be worthless.

I somehow doubt that Vox is willing to trade minimaps, since they know we cant get to them, but they can explore our lands.

But anyway, trade with other nations, even Vox would disagree on trading.

	06-01-2003 17:12									#11
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Agreed, of the many possible reasons why we might not want to trade minimaps, the possibility that it might not meet with Vox’s approval isn’t one of them.

	06-01-2003 18:28									#12
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I strongly favor it, because of two reasons: we want to know Vox' neighbour, and if we wait too long, it won't be worth sh!t.

Practical side: I would trade either the minimap of 3950BC (with our first city on it), or a blacked out map with just an icon. I don't terribly mind letting others know we're on a river (this can be seen on the 3950 minimap), it doesn't matter anyway, all teams will soon figure out that EotS is a settler pump, and can even see the frequency of settlerbuilding. If we gain a bit of information, good.

I wouldn't sell it to Vox atm, but if Grog gets through the Neck, I would. They will find out soon enough, so no problem there, but if we do it now they'll think we'll use it against them. (which is not our primary concern).

I don't want to sell current minimap information, knowing the position of our capital is enough, they do not need to know the exact geographical layout. Certainly not as we want to keep Vox from knowing it...

DeepO

	06-01-2003 20:35									#13
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Somewhat favor. I wouldn't bother even suggesting it to Vox, as they would have to be morons to accept such a trade. They have 2 warriors who are exploring happily along, and have "the Neck" plugged.

-Arrian

	06-01-2003 21:19									#14
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By the time we can do anything about it, won't Vox have enough information about our geography that more won't make much difference?

Nathan

	06-01-2003 21:28									#15
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True... but what's your point? Like I said, Vox not immidiately (and yes, they would be fools to do it), the others first. We just have to avoid Vox goes around selling our minimap, so that we don't gain anything from it.

DeepO

	06-01-2003 22:23									#16
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I strobgly favor this idea- for all the reasons said.
But again- Can't we at least attack their eastern warrior, in the next turn or the one after, if they don't agree to pull back after we made it clear that they approach our borders and demand them to cease their approach?


And what about sharing contact info?

	06-01-2003 22:33									#17
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If we trade Vox our minimap there doesn't seem to be sufficient reason to build city #7 before #3 and #4. That is unless we are taking about just trading our 400BC minimap.

	06-01-2003 22:34									#18
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Since we already have a majority for the map trade, i think we must decide on the details- when and how. I already thoght of a statement that won't hint we are in a tight position, yet say we are eager for the tradeoff to take place. Something like: "After serious consideration, the voices that called for an expansion of our knowledge on the world, and for ushering an era of mutual trade and trust between our two teams, have beaten those voices that had called for seclusion. Therefor, we humbly present your this offer of trade, that will surely benefit us both... (words of flattery) etc...

	06-01-2003 22:40									#19
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quote: Originally posted by zeit I strobgly favor this idea- for all the reasons said. But again- Can't we at least attack their eastern warrior, in the next turn or the one after, if they don't agree to pull back after we made it clear that they approach our borders and demand them to cease their approach?

Odds would be against us, and the last thing we need is for Vox to get lucky and have their warrior promoted to veteran while at the same time our own defenses are weakened by the loss.

	06-01-2003 23:04									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Randolph If we trade Vox our minimap there doesn't seem to be sufficient reason to build city #7 before #3 and #4. That is unless we are taking about just trading our 400BC minimap.

Ah, but I was talking about trading our 3950 BC minimap, what works for Vox (keeping our contact possibilities secret) is also true for the rest. I want to trade the 9 tiles of 3950, nothing else. Giving a minimap now would be like trading away our world map, and that I'd like to keep secret of a while...

One extra idea: some have asked us if we could get a neutral meeting ground, why not propose the Isthmuss as one? RPG was one of the askers, and they are also more likely to be Civ X... maybe they can reach what we can't.

DeepO

	06-01-2003 23:11									#21
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OK 4000BC or 3950BC.

This whole thing makes a lot more sense to me now .

	06-01-2003 23:35									#22
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I think we should trade whole minimaps if we can. Trading just the starting position is next to useless for figuring out what kind of land settings we're playing on, and only very slightly more useful for getting a picture of the contact situation (since we'll know who's close to whom but not whether water separates them).

	06-01-2003 23:45									#23
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Let's do it in 2 steps, then. Trading whole minimaps will mean that eventually Vox will learn of our position, and at that time the fun is over. Plus, there is little to gain from trading whole minimaps once, we should be able to do it to all at once.

DeepO

	07-01-2003 01:56									#24
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quote: Originally posted by zeit Since we already have a majority for the map trade, i think we must decide on the details- when and how. I already thoght of a statement that won't hint we are in a tight position, yet say we are eager for the tradeoff to take place. Something like: "After serious consideration, the voices that called for an expansion of our knowledge on the world, and for ushering an era of mutual trade and trust between our two teams, have beaten those voices that had called for seclusion. Therefor, we humbly present your this offer of trade, that will surely benefit us both... (words of flattery) etc...

Add something like;

We are pleased to let you know, the diplomats have finally won the battle over our generals to share this info, they were no longer in any position to block it...

	07-01-2003 06:30									#25
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Do we have a concensus on this now ?

Same letter to all teams?

I'm going to contact ND if noone objects. I will not commit to anything, just saing hello and small talk.
I wil ask if they are still interested..

	07-01-2003 06:31									#26
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Alva, for what? 3950 BC minimaps?

DeepO

	07-01-2003 06:35									#27
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Yep,

Blacked-out?

	07-01-2003 06:37									#28
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Blacked out might depend on what the negotations give... I don't mind to show them we're in the middle of the land. Other team's coast (if they are visible) might be nice to know.

DeepO

	07-01-2003 07:26									#29
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Let's do it in 2 steps, then. Trading whole minimaps will mean that eventually Vox will learn of our position, and at that time the fun is over. Plus, there is little to gain from trading whole minimaps once, we should be able to do it to all at once.

WHAT fun is over? I still don't see what Vox could do with our minimap that would give them such a big advantage compared with knowing just what they'll learn from Tim and Willy. I keep hearing all this fear about the horrors if Vox learns more about our map, but I have yet to hear any concrete ideas about what horrible use Vox might put the information to to justify the fear. (If I sound frustrated, it's because after two or three days of hearing these fears with no one giving a concrete reason to justify them, I am.)

I do think there should be a clear agreement that the map information exchanged will not be disclosed to others. That won't guarantee that Vox won't learn it, but it would help reduce the chances.

Also note that once someone has a 3950 minimap from us, that may reduce their interest in a current one. So a two-stage approach could hurt us in that regard (on top of the harm just from delaying our access to important information).

Nathan