06-01-2003 08:22									#1
	Why does it take so long?? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I was just wondering why turns took so long after your units and improvements had been built.

Turns in HUGE games take quite long. I have noticed that the first part of the turn is the enemy moving. Considering that in the latter stages of the game the AI civs have huge armies, it is understandable why it takes so long.

The second part of the turn is when you finish building your units and improvements. Depending on how much is finished, it can or cannot take long.

The final part of the turn is quite unexplained to me. I have noticed that in this lapse is when Global Warming occurs, when your Galleys sink, when your resources run out, and when the AI civs build Spaceship parts. Yet for some reason this lapse is eternal even when I'm using a P4 1.7 GHz.

I have a hunch: I have noticed that the game pre-calculates combat outcomes since even when one restarts the game, the outcome of a military encounter remains the same each time. Same with exhausted resources. Perhaps the computer uses this lapse to calculate all possible combat outcomes of the next turn which IMO is really stupid because it takes too much time. Yes, it was "cheating" to keep loading saved games until favorable outcomes were achieved but TRUE and HONEST players will grin and bear it even when that Phalanx sank your Battleship!

Also, why does it take so long to build/capture a city in the latter part of the game too?

I would appreciate anyone explaining the reason for these unexplained mysteries to me. Thanx.

	06-01-2003 08:50									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

When playing on huge maps, turn off all animations except battle (my be even this!), that speeds the game a lot.

The play order in single player is:
- Human production
- AI production
- Human moves
- AI moves
So that "final part" you mention is the time the AI produces. There's quite a lot to calculate, it may take time.

Combat resultats are not precalculated, they are random. But the random seed is by default saved, so you can't cheat by reloading, because the seed is reloaded as well. If you want to cheat, you have to uncheck "Preserve random seed" when you set up the game.

Building and capturing cities late on takes long, because all trade routes are recalculated. That can be quite a lot at a huge map.

	06-01-2003 09:26									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: I have noticed that the first part of the turn is the enemy moving

Try holding shift

	06-01-2003 10:28									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

So that explains it all... thanx, for a moment there I was considering a P4 3.0, fortunately that won't be necessary (i didn't have the money either hehe)

	06-01-2003 11:27									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

In any case, if you want better performance, go for more MEM..

	06-01-2003 12:41									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

A few other aspects can make it take a long time, such a a loss of a harbor. Trades routes will have to be checked. Lost of a captiol and some others that I forget.

	06-01-2003 20:44									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

All what is related with trade takes time, in case of a huge map even a lot:

- Building a harbor or airport.
- Destroying a harbor or airport.
- Building, capturing or razing a city.
- The declaration of war (land, coastal and sea routes may be interrupted)
- A peace treaty (vice versa)
- Researching, buying or selling Astronomy, Navigation or Magnetism
- Connecting a luxury or strategic resource with a road.
- Cut off a luxury or strategic resource by pillaging or bombardement.

May be some more, but I tried to be accurate. All effects delay the game the longer, the larger the map is and the farther you are in the game.

	06-01-2003 22:12									#8
	Remove this text

Like mentioned above, holding shift down while the AI moves speeds it all up alot. Like if the AI has a bunch of units visible and moves the all the shift key will quickly speed through it all.

I am running CIV 3 on my Athlon XP 1800 with 768mb of pc-133 and it usually don't take very long even on huge maps with all civs. So I think memory may certainly help things out

Also no! You don't need a p4 3.0 to run civ3 fast...LOL. Save your money on that. Just throw in an extra 256mb memory stick and you will be good to go.

	06-01-2003 23:07									#9
	Suffering from ads?

Heheh, the P4 3.0 thing was just a joke, I'd buy such a monster to play Doom 3, not Civ3..

I think processor power is more important for turn length than memory since many calculations are being done. I have a P3 500 with 256 MB and turns are eternal in the latter stages. When playing on my aunt's P4 1.7 with only 128 MB the game runs noticeably faster even though switching between apps is slower.

	07-01-2003 03:56									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

the difference between:

p3 500 --- p4 1.7

128 --- 256 MB

isn't really a fair comparisson, is it???

	08-01-2003 01:50									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

the only good thing about taking so long is that I can do school work in the meantime...

BTW Alva, hadn't noticed the Tears for Fears quote...nice choice.

	08-01-2003 02:10									#12
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by raguil_79 I think processor power is more important for turn length than memory since many calculations are being done....

I wouldn't be so sure. I doubled my RAM from 256mb to 512mb on my AMD 1.1ghz and the time between turns went down incredibly. I used to avoid any map over 130x130 because the game would crawl by the Middle Ages; now I'm playing 170x170 and the time between turns seems to top out at one minute late in the game.

	08-01-2003 05:31									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

i'm playing a huge map (160x160 i'm guessing) with a Pentium... oh my god is that a celeron? 500 mhz, 96 RAM... i'm in mid-industrial age... loading/exiting the game and turns take over 3 minutes each now... 16 civs, all alive, i'm the biggest by a good margin and have 500 or so units. i dont see enemy movement at all and it doesn't make much of a difference if i do or dont

	08-01-2003 07:19									#14
	Increase the size of your Attachments

well, in spite of my experience, I guess the evidence is that memory does affect turns significantly. Guess I'll have to get some 256 MB extra, couldn't hurt anyway.

Now that you've all explained why turns take so long, why does it also take so long to load a game?

	08-01-2003 08:44									#15
	Increase Your PM Length

Huge games can take up to 700MB of virtual MEM!!!
Take a look at task manager, you see.

There is an incredible amount of calculations that need to be done. btw map size is the problem as such, having a lot of civs at once are...

	08-01-2003 18:30									#16
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by alva Huge games can take up to 700MB of virtual MEM!!! Take a look at task manager, you see.

That's another good point. I've configured virtual memory so that 1024MB are reserved. If your virtual memory is low, that can slow you down, too.

	10-01-2003 17:19									#17
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

My Civ III games were turning into dogs until we had some friends over for Thanksgiving. I mentioned to one how my PC was acting up and he took a look at it. Imagine my surprise when we found two viruses and 195!!!, yes 195, spyware components courtesy of Kazaa. We cleaned it all up and it was like buying a new computer. You might try looking into that.

	10-01-2003 17:37									#18
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

If you're playing with auto-save turned on, like I do, you might want to take a look at how windoze is managing your hard disk. Imagine my surprise when I discovered stupid WinMe had no idea how to use DMA on my hard disk!

	10-01-2003 18:04									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I don't really understand the slow games that people complain about. Granted, I normally play on standard maps, but my last game was on huge (16 civs) pangea map. It ended with a space ship win for me , with 8 civs left.

I guess that the last turns had less than 30 secs waiting time between the turns (not counting visible enemy movement which goes fast when I hold down shift, or my build choises), which is fully playable, and not even irritating.

So what monster machine do I have? It's a laptop, 1 GHz P3 with 256 MB RAM (with a onboard graphics processor that uses the standard RAM). Not much to brag about, but it can still play huge games without much problems.

	10-01-2003 18:56									#20
	Got spare money?

quote: It ended with a space ship win for me , with 8 civs left.

Try the same game, but leave all 16 alive, you might notice a small difference

	10-01-2003 19:01									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Imagine my surprise when we found two viruses and 195!!!, yes 195, spyware components courtesy of Kazaa.

I use both spybot and Adaware at least 3 times a week.

quote: I've configured virtual memory so that 1024MB are reserved.

Setting your virtual partition too big, can slow your PC down too btw, a lot in fact. If you 512 MB a VM partition of 300 MB should be enough.

For people with '98 or ME never use more then 256Ram, there is no point in doing so. Both the OS's can't handle it.

	10-01-2003 21:16									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Stuie That's another good point. I've configured virtual memory so that 1024MB are reserved. If your virtual memory is low, that can slow you down, too.

Another thing too, your OS. I'm getting a little better performance ever since I upgraded to XP Pro. Not a lot, but every little bit helps.

	10-01-2003 21:18									#23
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by kcbob My Civ III games were turning into dogs until we had some friends over for Thanksgiving. I mentioned to one how my PC was acting up and he took a look at it. Imagine my surprise when we found two viruses and 195!!!, yes 195, spyware components courtesy of Kazaa. We cleaned it all up and it was like buying a new computer. You might try looking into that.

Yes Kazaa is bad for that. Try Bearshare instead. You'll probably like it better overall, much more user friendly IMO.

	10-01-2003 21:21									#24
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by alva I use both spybot and Adaware at least 3 times a week.

Adaware caused me some serious headaches when I mistakenly erased something I shouldn't have. I won't trust it again. It's classification of what is spyware seems to be rather broad IMO. You need to be careful with it.

	10-01-2003 21:25									#25
	Got spare money?

Adaware is what we used and we were pretty careful about what we deleted. As for a substitute for Kazaa, a guy yesterday told me about a site called 'lime' something. I wrote it down but it's at home. I'll check tomorrow.

	10-01-2003 22:09									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Never had any problems with adware, ATM it isn't updated anymore. So you do have to be carefull in that area.

Kcbob: limewire?
Kazaa is filled with spyware: use kazaa lite ++

Now lets get back on topic, and not turn it into a fileshare/spyware thread

	10-01-2003 22:13									#27
	Got spare money?

Limewire sounds right.

Back on subject... I have noticed one thing. When the AI is taking its turn, if you hold the Shift key down, the graphics fly by. That helps some.

	10-01-2003 22:24									#28
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by kcbob Adaware is what we used and we were pretty careful about what we deleted. As for a substitute for Kazaa, a guy yesterday told me about a site called 'lime' something. I wrote it down but it's at home. I'll check tomorrow.

LimeWire. I've tried it, I like Bearshare better. You should get both and compare.