06-01-2003 11:04									#1
	Artificial Intelligence (AI) Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Artificial Intelligence (AI): the capability of a machine to imitate intelligent human behavior.

All the people who want to discuss, or pose questions/answers about AI should do so here.

Here are some links that some of you might find of interest:

http://www.gameai.com/

http://www.cs.washington.edu/research/jair/home.html

http://ai-depot.com/

-J.B.-

	06-01-2003 21:03									#2
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Interesting...

	07-01-2003 04:35									#3
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Interesting links, JB. (Though I have seen two of them already.)

Just in case anybody else is interested, another interesting page I found is Amit's game programming information - some very nice analysis of path-finding algorythms.

	07-01-2003 06:57									#4
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quote: Interesting...

quote: Interesting links, JB.

I'm touched. Thanks. I got these sites from google and here it is:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...ence&as_q=Games

I just had no time to post the entire list of them that were good for what we need. If you want to sift through them then go ahead.

-J.B.-

	08-01-2003 08:18									#5
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Hi All, I just noticed this thread. There are a few more good links you can get under the heading "Related Web Sites" on the Clash AI Page.

Good luck with SP in general, and your deliberations on AI in particular!

	08-01-2003 10:34									#6
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Thanks Mark! Hopefully the success of Clash will become inevitable.

	09-01-2003 07:03									#7
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Thanks Rasbelin! Coincidentally we just released Demo 7.2 today! If you've got the time, please drop by the forum and check it out.

Cya,

Mark

	09-01-2003 07:07									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Thanks, Mark_Everson for your contribution to this project.
I will check your project out too. As I have not seen it before now.

-J.B.-

	11-01-2003 02:34									#9
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Thanks Jeremy. I'd like to hear what you think about where we are, and where Clash is going! The more input the better. Our open design philosophy is the same as SPs. . . so comment at any length you're comfortable with.

	12-01-2003 02:13									#10
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Well the Game wouldn't work on my Windows 2000 pro. computer. I have no Idea why. When I have time I will test in on Linux Red Hat 8.1
Anyways it looks very cool. If only I could move my units and do something.
-J.B.-

	12-01-2003 02:25									#11
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AI should be very good. We should make the Computer respond to the human controlled players with a variety of emotions and moods such as:

Anger

Kindness

impatient

pursausive

Informative

Logical

Ecentric

depressed ~ If the faction is being disrupted and having loads of problems then the leader might become depressed or just sad. Maybe depressed is too strong of a word.

Tense/impatient

Irritible

mysterious/shifty sort of.

shifty Kind of shifty like a hidden agenda.

Tired Mood Kind of tired. ie: Tired of combat, negotiations etc.

Scared If past event(s) were bad then the computer might contract PTS syndrome (Post traumatic Stress Syndrome.

Feeling Violent

Passive

passive/agressive Showing signs of phsycological disorder of being passive at one moment and abruptly changing to agressive stance.

Thats about all I could think of at this point in time. Please post some feedback.

Thanks,
JB

Last edited by Jeremy Buloch on 12-01-2003 at 04:46

	12-01-2003 07:13									#12
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AI having "moods" is in my opinion just a diversion if it turns out to be too difficult to write an AI that can actually pose a challenge. That's what the moods were for in SMAC. Some of the moods listed above are even contrary to good strategy, for example what possible advantages could psychological disorders yield? If it's advantageous for an AI faction to start trading with another faction, it obviously makes it a worse strategist if it doesn't do that because it's "depressed" or "shifty"!

I'm not saying I'm against moody AI. It could be fun enough when you're playing all by yourself, and for a strategic challenge one can always join multiplayer games. Just pointing out that "moody AI" is not necessarily "good AI", nor vice versa.

	12-01-2003 07:26									#13
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I agree with Leland. I think that AI moods would be sort of an icing on the cake. When we get all the rest done, and have released a couple of versions of the game, it might then make sense to add some interesting feature, like this, which would add replayability to the thing.

	12-01-2003 08:01									#14
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Yes, I too agree it should come later in the game now that you pointed it out. The moods can make the computer do certain things which will make its strategies a little more complicated. Like if its impatient it would attack pre-maturely and it would add realism to the game. The computer shouldn't allways make good choices. If we want it to be human like we need to give it human emotions, do we not? It is not just for good interesting features its for realism. But I agree it should come after we have a working AI. Yet I would think it would be easier to put it in first with the reg. AI instead of puting it afterwards then it might conflict with something. But then again I haven't programmed anything big. Only small apps. Which ever the coders decide is fine with me.

Now where should we start?

What part of the AI?
-J.B.-

	12-01-2003 09:21									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Jeremy Buloch Now where should we start? What part of the AI?

Well, it is really hard to say where to start, Jereme. Or rather, it is really hard to start on anything before we have some kind of game to put it in or other. You see, whatever part of the ai you would want to start coding, it always ties in with other aspects of the game, and since we don't have anything coded yet (only soe parts of the map editor, and that seems to be pretty useless now, that we are talking about a whole new concept of RTS-type maps for the game). For example: to try and code the path-finding algorythm (should be one of the easiest things.) you need to know what the map will be, and how it will be stored in the game. We don't have that. To start coding the military AI, we need to know, once again, what the system of coordinates will be - to make strategic plans, and execute attacks, and we need to know how the players, and the nations will be represented in the game, in order to assess the general military strength, and determine the best strategy. We don't have that. In order to code the diplomatic AI, we need to know how diplomacy will work. We don't know that. The list can go on and on.

In general, I think that the evolution of a game like this is very similar to the evolution of life on earth (although I hope it will take a little bit less time). How did animals evolve? Well, speaking in simplistic terms, they got the body first, which let them survive, and prosper, and then, as they were essentially out of danger (comparatively speaking), they started developing brains. The brain got bigger and bigger, and the result is ... well, one result is typing this, and another result is reading this right now. It is the same thing with a game like this: you cannot code the brain (read, the AI) without a more or less functioning body (read, everything else).

So, I am afraid, coding the AI is a ways off from now.

	12-01-2003 09:38									#16
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Wow thanks Vovan!
You explained it very well and your right we should put this AI away till its needed. I think we should start making the model of the game as we were doing on the FreeAc site. While we are discussing the science involved we can make the model. Diplomatic, Militaristic, Economic, Unit movement, menus, etc. Then once we've drawn out the outline we can code it and then after like you said a couple of versions are completed we can then create the AI. We have a long process ahead of us, its going to be a tricky one too. But we will manage, we will triumph, we will do the best!
-J.B.-

	12-01-2003 10:19									#17
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About the AI, I'd like to add that I by no means don't think that AI with moods is necessarily a bad thing... it's a design choice that has to be made at some point (probably after the basic pathfinding and such are done, which means not in a while...). Either you strive for a strategist AI, or for a personalized AI. I think that adding personality after the whole thing is done is difficult, or making personalized AI have good strategies. The two things conradict each other somewhat. I guess this can be mitigated by making the AI generally easy to tweak...