09-01-2003 21:14									#61
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I suggest that a constitional amendment be worked out to avoid deadlocks where no single proposal has a majority support as the first option.

Perferably something like instant runnoff polls (otherwise known as perferance voting.)

quote: Originally posted by Meshelic As we near closer and closer to the end of the game (we're not even in modern times yet folks, but still) I sense there is going to be continued dispute over how to go about winning it. It could get pretty ugly...

	09-01-2003 22:00									#62
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Maybe we should have a speial chat on this. We decide it in chat, there is nothing that says it must be a poll.
Aggie

	09-01-2003 22:28									#63
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My perference list for Seti:

1. Palace at Marcross City

2. Palace at any city such that the Iron Works city will have the same (or less) waste as it would in Marcross City.

3. Army.

4. Battlefield Medicine (if Seti can be used for this purpose within 2 turns)

5. Wall Street.

	10-01-2003 00:44									#64
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I had voted No, because of the fact, that this bill is too restrictive on were we want the Place to go.

I Imagine that this is the case of several people who had voted.

As I had stated in the begining of this Bill, we should have the bill ONLY for using him for the Palace move. As it stand right now, we can not proceed until we have a proper knowledge of WHAT the Senate wants him to do.

We need 2 bills at this time, 1 for using him for another Army, and one for using him for the Palace move. Link them together, so that people will vote in both. If you vote yes in one, you should vote no in the other.

But needless to say, we need to get this resolved, before the game can move on. As it currently stands, any bill that is posted today, will take us to Monday to resolve.

Let's get to it.

E_T

Last edited by E_T on 10-01-2003 at 00:49

	10-01-2003 00:51									#65
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I'd have voted No on any bill that left it too open as to which city got the Palace.

If everybody that votes Yes on Bill A votes No on Bill B, and everybody that votes Yes on Bill B votes No on Bill A, then we could easily have both bills going down from people voting No on both.

Some people will need to vote Yes on both to ensure that at least one option passes.

	10-01-2003 01:10									#66
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hi ,

, what are the exact benefits of a move , .....

has anyone made the calculations yet

have a nice day

	10-01-2003 01:38									#67
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I havent had time to do the necessary calculations. As for the bill itself, I personally feel There should have been a first bill to decide whether we wanted it for a Palace, then a second bill for location (I didnt object to the original bill mainly because I wanted the Palace in Macross City). By the way, if we were to use it for an Army, DO NOT build him jut to disband him. We couldn't use those shields for wonders and it lengthens the time required to get the Pentagon. Please no more Cav in Armies, save any new armies for MA.

	10-01-2003 01:51									#68
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Panag, the P - FP with fixed FP problem is in the general type of problems where a close aproxiation is obvious at a glance, but proofing it takes several hours of calculation.

And unless I'm missing massive shortcut in the calculation this,
it's a 2N + 3((N - 1) ^ N) problem ->
O(N ^ N) ->
In the set of NP problems.

1. Raw shield production and Raw commerce is calculated for every city. (Disregarding corruption / waste)

2. The effect of the FP on net produciton is calculated for every city.

3. For every city other than the FP location [already known from #2] pretend the palace is in it for the loop.

A. Then The effect of the palace is calculated for every city in the empire.

B . Max production between the #2 for that city and #3A of that city is chosen.

C. Summation of all 3B results.

	10-01-2003 02:15									#69
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I'm counting 50 cities in our empire.

2(50) + 3 ((50 - 1) ^ 50) =

100 + 3 (49 ^ 50) =

100 + 3 * (3.23E+84) =

9.70E+84

This would take even a computer some time to process.

	10-01-2003 02:29									#70
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This bill has failed.

Senators... PLEASE debate options for a new bill and please forward such a bill quickly so that the 3 days for it can go by and we can get on with the game.

Thank You

	10-01-2003 03:57									#71
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Lets just discuss options in a chat, no need for a lengthy bill process. Lets have a 2 hr chat devoted to this a "senate session", then arrive at a concensus. Delaying the game more is unacceptable.
Aggie

	10-01-2003 04:07									#72
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I've listed every option I saw under multiple threads as an unoffical thread so that we will have a better idea on which choices a bill could be passed on.

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos This bill has failed. Senators... PLEASE debate options for a new bill and please forward such a bill quickly so that the 3 days for it can go by and we can get on with the game. Thank You

	10-01-2003 10:25									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie Lets just discuss options in a chat, no need for a lengthy bill process. Lets have a 2 hr chat devoted to this a "senate session", then arrive at a concensus. Delaying the game more is unacceptable. Aggie

Aggie, we have no choice. The NewCon requires for the Senate to decide and the Senate's method of decision-making is to pass a bill.

Even if the Senate, in its wisdom, were to pass a constitutional ammendment changing the method by which we decide what to do with GL's (HINT! HINT! HINT!), that would take 10 days and then only be useful when the NEXT great leader came around.

So it's going to be at least 3 days.

	10-01-2003 10:33									#74
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That is incorrect arnelos, the senate must decide, there is NOTHING that says it must decide by poll.
Aggie

	11-01-2003 00:50									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie That is incorrect arnelos, the senate must decide, there is NOTHING that says it must decide by poll. Aggie

hi ,

, the best would be when people vote without holding there identity , just posting in a thread the vote , wheter its yes or no or abstain , .....

so what is the fastest legal way to decide , ....

have a nice day

	11-01-2003 01:52									#76
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For Aggie and anyone else confused by the NewCon:

quote: Article II. The Senate 1 All citizens who are not currently a Minister, President, Vice- President or Judge are Senators 2 Any Senator may propose a law. Any Minister may propose a law that addresses one of the powers granted to their office. [added by Amendment I, 12/23/02] (a) To propose a law, a senator (or minister under the conditions above) [added by Amendment I, 12/23/02] must post a poll that is clear, unbiased, states the proposed law in its entirety, and gives three options: "yea", "nay", and "abstain". (b) The poll’s subject must begin with the text "SENATE BILL:" (c) The first post of the poll must clarify the options if clarification is needed and state the expiration date. (d) The poll must be open for at least 72 hours. (e) To pass, the proposed law must receive more "yea" votes than "nay" votes. It must also meet the quorum. (i) The quorum: The total number of votes cast in the poll for passage must be greater than or equal to 25% of the total number of votes cast in the most recent Presidential election. (ii) Any "abstain" votes are considered solely for quorum purposes. "Abstain" votes may not be considered "yea" or "nay" votes. (iii) The Senate has the power to modify the quorum requirements or to perform a census without amending the Constitution. (f) All citizens, not just senators, are allowed to vote in any poll. (g) Proposed laws may not violate or change the Constitution. Proposed laws may change any existing laws or Executive orders. 3 Senators may also propose motions, resolutions, orders, and decisions of the Senate. These are proposed in the same way as laws and follow the same rules. These carry the same authority as a law. 4 The Senate has the power to declare war. 5 The Senate must approve all Military Alliances, Trade Embargos, and Mutual Protection Pacts. 6 The Senate has the power to set Mobilization level to "War-Time". 7 The Senate has the power to change the form of the government. 8 The Senate has the power to decide how Great Leaders are used 9 The Senate has the power to determine how money is spent. The Senate is not required to use this power. Should the Senate fail to act on any spending matter, or should a spending matter be vetoed, the President may decide. 10 The Senate may make its own laws regarding Senate procedure. 11 The Senate must keep records of all laws, motions, resolutions, and otherwise that are passed, amended, or removed. It should appoint a Clerk to do so. 12 All powers not specifically given to the other branches are hereby given to the Senate.

You will note from the sections I have bolded that all Senate laws must be passed as polls and such polls must be held for 72 hours and must allow all citizens to vote in them. The Senate is, however, permitted to form its own rules under #10, perhaps including changes in procedure?

As regards the current situation, however, there should be no question, given the wording of #3 above, that we are required to pass a bill.