07-01-2003 00:23									#1
	Did I just get shot at? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

So, I was sending an infantry unit from one city to another via railroad. Usually, the unit just kind of "appears" in the destination square, since travel by RR costs no movement. But along the way, my unit was fired upon by a lone AI unit perched atop a hill along the route. Anybody know how he was able to do this? And how can I do it too?!

By the way, is this how forts are supposed to work? I've built a couple along a mountainous border between me (Romans) and the Zulus, and for all their passing by, I've not once been able to take my "free shot" at them. Do I have any control over this, or is it automatic? Should I assume that, unless told otherwise, my fort scored no successful shot at the Zulus?

In general, are forts a waste of time?

	07-01-2003 00:45									#2
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Auto shots can be taken any time a unit travelling by railroad passes directly adjacent to an enemy unit, as far as I know. I'm not sure if all units can take shots, though I've definitely seen tanks, MAs, Marines, and MIs taking shots before. Forts provide a defense bonus (50%?) to any unit who is attacked while on them. I don't think it matters whether the fort is friendly or enemy, though it may. Forts don't increase or decrease your chances for taking a shot at an enemy. And yes, you should see it if your unit does get a shot at an enemy.
In my opinion, the most annoying aspect of the auto-shot is the stacked movement aspect. If you send a large stack of units to somewhere by rail and they pass within the range of some unit who can take an auto-shot, rather than changing course after the first shot or allowing the player to change where they're moving to, the entire stack will go the exact same route, often resulting in about half of them arriving at the battlefield already injured.

	07-01-2003 01:27									#3
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You mean certain eligible units can take free shots, even without the benefit of being garrisoned in a fort? (But only when adjacent to RRs, not roads?) But isn't that supposed to be half the benefit (other than the defensive bonus) of forts and why anyone would bother building them? And why no mention of this in the Civilopedia/game manual?

One of the reasons why this bugs me so much is that it happens SO infrequently. It hardly seems to deserve to exist as a defensive feature. I've seen it happen only twice in my current game (I barely caught it the first time), and my civ has been at war all its history, just about.

	07-01-2003 01:48									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Keeper of Hell Forts don't increase or decrease your chances for taking a shot at an enemy. And yes, you should see it if your unit does get a shot at an enemy.

That's not true. Any unit that's inside a Fort will have the ability of getting a free shot, regardless of whether they have ZoC enabled. It just doesn't happen very often, which is probably why you don't think it does.

	07-01-2003 01:51									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Ursa You mean certain eligible units can take free shots, even without the benefit of being garrisoned in a fort? (But only when adjacent to RRs, not roads?) But isn't that supposed to be half the benefit (other than the defensive bonus) of forts and why anyone would bother building them? And why no mention of this in the Civilopedia/game manual? One of the reasons why this bugs me so much is that it happens SO infrequently. It hardly seems to deserve to exist as a defensive feature. I've seen it happen only twice in my current game (I barely caught it the first time), and my civ has been at war all its history, just about.

It's called Zone of Control, or ZoC, some units have it, some don't. Take a look in the editor in the Units area to find out which do. But any unit in a Fort has ZoC abilities.

I agree with you, it's not very well documented, and it doesn't work very good. In fact it's almost useless.

	07-01-2003 14:40									#6
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I do not consider fortresses useless:

They provide units very high bonuses on their defense (+50%),which are cumulative with terrain bunuses, such as mountains (+100%) and fortification bonuses.

So a fortress built on a mountain provides even a mere spearman (fortified of course) with a defensive value of 2*1.5 (Fort) = 3 and 3*2.0 (mountains) = 6 and 6*1.25 (fortified)= 7.5 + an added "extra" in the form of a ZoC (please correct me if I'm wrong) so even a spearman on a fortress in mountains is a foe to be reckoned with (especially in the early ages that is) and I would not even attack him with infantry for my chances would be slim (even on hills will still give a spearman 5.6 on defense).

My point here is that by fortifying units on mountain/hills in a fortress more or less dictates the enemy to take a different route. If it does not your units in the fortress wil likely take a shot at passing enemy units.

Stats for some defensive units fortified in fortresses on:

Unit mountains hills flatland
Spearman 7.5 5.625 3.75
Pikeman 11.25 8.44 5.625
Musketman 15 11.25 7.5
Rifleman 22.5 16.8 11.25
Infantry 37.5 28.125 18.75
Mech Inf 67.5 50.625 33.75

I did not calculate the fact if attacker is crossing a river during its attack.

	07-01-2003 21:31									#7
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was it a zulu unit firing? (you must have been at peace with them)

	07-01-2003 21:41									#8
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quote: So a fortress built on a mountain provides even a mere spearman (fortified of course) with a defensive value of 2*1.5 (Fort) = 3 and 3*2.0 (mountains) = 6 and 6*1.25 (fortified)= 7.5

I'm not sure about this, but isn't the defence calculated a bit differently? 50%+100%+25%=175% --> 2 x 2.75 = 5.5 So you add instead of multiplying. Anyone confirn this?

	07-01-2003 21:58									#9
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somebody just checked the math..ahhh...

	07-01-2003 22:02									#10
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quote: Originally posted by bobbo008 somebody just checked the math..ahhh...

Come take another look, maybe now someone answered your question aHAHHAHA I feel silly today

	07-01-2003 22:08									#11
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..numbers...bobbo home sick... 11:25 central should be pre-calc time... math talk stops now...

	08-01-2003 01:00									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Major Guz My point here is that by fortifying units on mountain/hills in a fortress more or less dictates the enemy to take a different route. If it does not your units in the fortress wil likely take a shot at passing enemy units. Stats for some defensive units fortified in fortresses on: Unit mountains hills flatland Spearman 7.5 5.625 3.75 Pikeman 11.25 8.44 5.625 Musketman 15 11.25 7.5 Rifleman 22.5 16.8 11.25 Infantry 37.5 28.125 18.75 Mech Inf 67.5 50.625 33.75 I did not calculate the fact if attacker is crossing a river during its attack.

You make a convincing argument for the effectiveness of fortresses during a defensive encounter. But I wonder about the number of times in an average game you would actually benefit from those encounters. Unless you're playing a map with an unavoidable choke point (like an isthmus), AI units will simply go around your fortress. And how long will that choke point remain at a border, and worth defending? We all know how temporary national borders are in Civ3.

It seems to me that this fact--plus the cost (in worker labor) of building fortresses--makes fortresses a wasted investment. In my current game, they've clearly become the Roman version of the (French, WWII) Maginot Line.

	08-01-2003 04:04									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Correct me if Im wrong, all units after/including the Infantry get ZoC, its a small percent chance to take a shot at a passing unit regardless of if theyre traveling on rail, road, or just terrian. The fortress gives all units ZoC, everything from militia to riflemen IFAIK.

I can think of numerous times where a few well placed fortresses realy wouldve saved my butt. Even if the AI wouldve avoided them completely, at least it wouldve made a smaller front-lines area.

1 last thing, Id like to challenge anyone with time to find where (which page) in the manual it states the defensive bonus for fortifying. I looked for about 2 second in the ptw manual before going to the Civ3 manual. I look under everything that made sense - fortify... garrison... unit orders... even in the fortify/garrison paragraph it didnt mention the percentage, just that fortifying your units will cause them to continually skip turns...

	08-01-2003 04:05									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Ursa It seems to me that this fact--plus the cost (in worker labor) of building fortresses--makes fortresses a wasted investment. In my current game, they've clearly become the Roman version of the (French, WWII) Maginot Line.

But the French Maginot Line worked, and its works in Civ3 too. The Germans went around the Maginot Line, not through it.

As Major Guz has stated, by building these defensive emplacements you dictate to your enemy that he must find another route. If the only other route is by sea, a few galleons/transports dropping off some units now and then is much easier to handle than a 100+ unit stack of death coming over land. Or you can direct the enemy to march between two large cities (with good def. bonuses) and take arty pot shots at them after which your attackers finish off the injured enemy units.

It all depends on the type of game you're playing. If your goal is to stampede across your whole continent by 1000AD, you probably don't need a Maginot Line. But if, like me, you don't want to eliminate everybody (going for space race) and enjoy having a land border, a Maginot Line can be a source of national pride.

	08-01-2003 04:49									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Ursa Unless you're playing a map with an unavoidable choke point (like an isthmus), AI units will simply go around your fortress. And how long will that choke point remain at a border, and worth defending? We all know how temporary national borders are in Civ3.

If you have an Artillery piece in that Fort they're passing, you might get the option of hitting them 3-5 times through bombardment. And maybe ZoC damage as well. If you're lucky, they'll be so badly damaged they'll no longer pose a threat.

	08-01-2003 05:08									#16
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"But the French Maginot Line worked, and its works in Civ3 too. The Germans went around the Maginot Line, not through it."

as a matter-a-fact, the Germans did bombard the line from Germany, and only breached the concrete in one place. An excellent job by the French. The concrete facing France was thinner than the side facing Germany, being that during WWI, after the Germans took the fort(ress) at Metz, and the French spent rest of the war trying to get it back. if my knowledge was correct on that...

	08-01-2003 12:34									#17
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The Civilopedia states that the bonus for fortifying units is 25% (look under Game Concepts).

As for how the math is done, I took the way it is done in AC (multiply), so I'm not Sure if it is done the same way in CivIII.

IMO it would be more logical to add instead of multiply (for bonuses are stated +X% and not *1.Y). However I took the way of AC (assuming the calculation would be done in the same way), which could be a gross mistake off course.

I invite anyone (Theseus??) to confirm this.

	08-01-2003 12:43									#18
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You add all the bonusses from the base number, you don't multiply it.
Spearman =2 +
mountains 100% = + 2
fortified 25% =+0.5
fortress 50% = + 1
=5.5

	08-01-2003 14:59									#19
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Excellent!

Sorry to all you out there about my "minor" miscalculation .


Thanx Alva for correcting things!!

	08-01-2003 20:27									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Carver But the French Maginot Line worked, and its works in Civ3 too. The Germans went around the Maginot Line, not through it.

The Maginot Line stretched the entire length of France's border with Germany and Belgium; there was no going around it. The luftwaffe went over it and the tanks, etc. funneled through small holes punched in it. Unless you're being a contrarian, the Maginot Line is military history's footnote to bad strategy and famous for its failure to even delay the German invasion.

As for the game, I can see how a carefully chosen line of fortresses along a mountainous border would be nice to have. I'll try it when I'm playing a less militaristic game--maybe as the French!

	08-01-2003 20:44									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Ursa As for the game, I can see how a carefully chosen line of fortresses along a mountainous border would be nice to have. I'll try it when I'm playing a less militaristic game--maybe as the French!

What I try to do is build a line of Forts spaced every two squares apart, regardless of terrain. The AI will try to go through the gaps in between so you can bombard them as they pass. By the time they make through to the cities in behind, they're easy pickings for my reserve troops.

	08-01-2003 23:46									#22
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On average, how often do you get a free shot?

	09-01-2003 00:00									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Ursa On average, how often do you get a free shot?

It happens so rarely I can't even think of any sort of percentage. Virtually nil really. But I can do alot of damage with Artillery. A one move unit can be hit 5 times by a single Artillery as it tries to pass between the 2 Forts. They're pretty much mincemeat by the time they make it through.

	09-01-2003 01:02									#24
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I find, as soon as the AI takes 1 point of damage they run home to mama and repair before trying again. So basically arty just delay them indefinately, thats assuming they are coming at you in huge stacks so theres no way to counter-attack.

	09-01-2003 02:11									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Ursa The Maginot Line stretched the entire length of France's border with Germany and Belgium; there was no going around it. The luftwaffe went over it and the tanks, etc. funneled through small holes punched in it. Unless you're being a contrarian, the Maginot Line is military history's footnote to bad strategy and famous for its failure to even delay the German invasion.

From Microsoft Encoarta:

quote: At the start of World War II, the German blitz campaigns in Poland and Western Europe skillfully combined air and surface mobility and striking power. These campaigns made the elaborate permanent fortifications of the Maginot line, built by the French in the 1930s and named after its creator, the war minister André Maginot, the symbol throughout the world of military futility. The Maginot line, extending about 320 km (about 200 mi) along the northeastern border of France, was designed to prevent a frontal assault; the Germans invaded France in 1940 by flanking the line. Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2003. © 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

	09-01-2003 03:04									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Shr3dZ I find, as soon as the AI takes 1 point of damage they run home to mama and repair before trying again. So basically arty just delay them indefinately, thats assuming they are coming at you in huge stacks so theres no way to counter-attack.

That's why you'd have Cavalry, or some such mobile force, to take out the damaged units before they can retreat to their own borders. Combined arms in other words.