05-12-2000 19:57									#1
	strategy to conquer seabases Get a bigger avatar today!

Yesterday I invented a strategy to conquer seabases.
I don't know if it's new for everybody, but it was new for me, so I post it here, because someone can use it like me.

I was playing Cha Dawn and was in vendetta with Santiago.
The problem: Santiago had several sea bases near my continent, with a AAA-defender and several needlejets.
Attack by ships wasn't useful, because after the first attack (succesful or not), the needlejets destroy the ship. Attack by needlejets wouldn't be succesful because of the AAA.

My solution:
First strike: Conventional missile. Kills the best defender, the AAA.
Second strike: Attack with the needlejets. Destroys Santiagos needlejets right on the ground.
Third strike: The cruiser conquers the empty base.
Rush-build Scout-Patrol.

Now the turn is on Santiago. If I had luck, Santiago didn't attack my ship, and I, on my turn conquered the
next base.

Sometimes Santiago destroyed my ship. But then there was still the rush-built Scout Patrol.

Whatever happend, on my turn I upgraded the Scout Patrol, to AAA 1-Best-1, and the conquered base was safe for me.

	05-12-2000 21:17									#2
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Apperently it worked so congrats

I haven't got that clever opposition by the AI, as the one you describes, yet. Usually I don't need to build any missiles (because of the usual but maybe nmisguiided notion that these one-use-weapons are to expensive). But someday I migth need it and certainly in MP games, I guess. But Aerospace C, AAA and Elite troops tend to fend very good for themself and their base when you send missiles.

	06-12-2000 07:06									#3
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Another way to skin the tough sea base, is to use multiple ships. Just attack if you are strong enough. Then use more ships or noodles to take out the noodles or transports. I like capturing with a 2-3-4 (they are cheap to build, only 2x a scout, so if you loose it, no big deal). A benefit of this stratagy is that if the base is real tough, and has defenders that pose a problem for your ships attack strength, you can artillery the base for a turn or two. Just use one of your noodles to cover the ships, so his noodle can't get them. This of course becomes more complicated when the AI figures out how to use interceptors.

The tough land base is a different story. It often requires probes to take out defensive facilities like areospace complexes, and or perimiter defenses. This is sometimes easier/quicker than artillery.

	06-12-2000 08:15									#4
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One way to defend that base once you have captured it is to use a transport (sea or air) to rush a good AAA defender into the base.

I find ships useful throughout the game, though later on in the game they have to work hand in hand (as mentioned above) with your air force. I love pounding an enemy base full of troops with (sea based) artillery before I bring up the choppers. Then a fast AAA cruiser (1-Best-X, AAA) to capture the base and hold it. They are quite cheap even with Fusion power.

	06-12-2000 13:29									#5
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I'm also one of those players who is reluctent to use missile but I'm starting to see their uses.

	06-12-2000 14:28									#6
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Hy Horus and Gothar!

I have read in many threads that only few players use missiles, because they are one-use and expensive.
So did I beginning to play SMAC.
But I learned to use them from the attacks the AI did with them on me. Their strengh is their power (normally kill all units except AAA or elite in well defended bases) and especially their long range. With missiles, You get Your hand deep in enemies territory.
If You play quite good, in midgame You should have a half dozen of bases or more which could build a missile
in 2, 3, or even 5 turns. So I use to put a missile in one building qeue every turn, and I get, in average, one missile per turn.

I use them often as First-strike-weapons as mentioned above, to take out the best defender of a base I want to conquer. They come very handy, If an enemy appears suprisingly in Your territory or an enemies ship begins to bomb Your enhancemens. Sometimes I even use them to destroy locusts. And, if Your enemy begins to build a secret project or a planet buster, You can bomb the base of the project until the AI switches back to build a defender, an get in this way the time to build the SP Yourself.

Greetings Skanderbeg

	06-12-2000 15:20									#7
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I really do see your point Skand. And further, as I often play on large, not to say huge maps, I often find large areas which are bona fide wasteland. Imagine some airbases some landrows inland (so that you don't locate the base from the sea), far from you own land.

Your opponents will have a hard time trying to locate were the heck the misslies come from, missiles who tends to sink every important convoy, Alien artifact etc one can think of. Much valuable resources and time will be spent hunting secret launching sites.

Btw can you give the AA ability to a missile?

	06-12-2000 17:50									#9
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Hrm, I meant the ability do actually attack air crafts, not just fend them of in a better way. But you gave the answer anyway, no special abilities. Nerve gas and long distant anti aircraft missiles makes complete sense on the other hand.

Or imagine a new Orbital defense pod, attack pod actually, which targets aircrafts (maybe not low flying helicopters and hoovercrafts). Then air units would be less outstanding indeed. But I'm drifting away in my own fantasies now, I'll better stop. Right here. Now. That's it. Hmmm, Attack pods.......

	06-12-2000 19:21									#10
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Skand,

It looks like your approach works. For the most part though I normally rely on the tried and true use of Marines Aka jar heads.

Load up a transport full of marines and cover with a needlejet (preferably a tactical if the AI is smart enough to also build air superiority fighters).

Move transport up to base and ensure one movement point is left. Click on transport and activate Marines. Take out AAA and then noodlejets. Allow one Marine or other to remain unmoved.

Once base is vacated of all those offending AI units take base with last marine and move transport with damaged Marines into safe harbor. Land your tactical. If you can achieve the conquest with another marine unit free, you have the option of upgrading the other marine to a AAA configuration.

A full fusion transport with best weapon marines (8) is a devastating thing to behold as sea base after sea base falls (especially if the marines are elite), and the good thing is it works even in the later stage of the game when AAA and aerospace make it more of a challenge for chopper/locusts combos to take well defended bases.

Og

	06-12-2000 20:24									#11
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Sounds like a good strategy Skanderbeg, although I am in the camp that seldom builds missles except for a long range strike or to go for a particularly crucial base. Interestingly the AI loves them. I nerve gassed a Usurper base out of existence and then found that there were 14 !! missles that I was able to take out with the remaining attacks from 2 choppers and then sent a couple of noodles. Then 3 more flew away !!

Back on point. I generally use ships and choppers to take seabases since I have rarely encountered seriously defended sea bases. On the occasions when there is serious defence I might bombard with 2-3 attack-only vessles (very cheap ) before chopper swarming the base and then taking it with a 1-best AAA unit. Just as often I might empty the base but not take it (if I already have good, well protected staging areas for future attacks) since the AI is as likely as not on the next turn to send jets and missles into the base and it can build only one good defender. Even if a great defender is built another round of bombardment means that it is not that hard to take out and then the grounded air units are sitting ducks.

Infiltration is key on all this. If the plan is based on the location of the opposing forces you should be ok. I tend to bring much more force than is needed to a theatre before attacking in a blitz at several bases at once. Before even seriously thinking about taking the seabase I would want the ability to take out most of the potential counterattackers on the same strike. -- Its pride I know but I try to NEVER lose a base to the AI (don't always succeed).

All in all, I think there are a number of ways to take bases and players may favor different units. Your strategy seems very sound. I just happen to be totally biased in favor of choppers for their ability to kill so many units.

One question about missles-- how would the attack work if there was a mindworm defender? Is it the standard formula for psi warfare and if so isn't that illogical for what is presumably an unmanned weapon ? -- just curious


cbn

[This message has been edited by cbn (edited December 06, 2000).]

	06-12-2000 21:00									#12
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CBN,

It is my understnading that missiles against native the missile always perfectly attack and perfectly defend.

So if your base is under worm rape situations supposedly a single missile shuttled in will provide adequate defense 'gainst worm
s.

Likewise a missile will always destroy a native.

	06-12-2000 21:30									#13
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Ogie, your suggestion of marines is right on. Most players neglect marines, but they are part of a balanced force and they are most useful against sea bases.

One added tidbit: try building an amphibious rover or two. I always use a marine to take out the top defender, but there are often air units or transports there as well. An amphibious rover can take out two weak units or take out one and then capture the base while getting instantly repaired!

	06-12-2000 21:56									#14
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D-dad,

Your right on with the speeder approach. I neglected this and shouldn't have. Most times I end up putting 1-1-1 's on a transport and unpgrade along the way to destination sea base, but same approach can be done with 1-1-2's and the extra move is invaluable (and is extremely nice if it's an elite with 3 attacks).

Normally I find myself building thos amphib-speeders when I want to take out those blasted Pirate bases that end up ringing my continent. I attack from land and take theose nicelittle bases giving me a secured homeland with a ring of sea bases.

Thanks Sven

	07-12-2000 10:01									#15
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Why bother with infantry marines in the first place ?

Just fill up your transport with top~-1-2 and one or two 1-top-1 with whatever special defensive abilities are needed...

	07-12-2000 10:11									#16
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Aredhran - never underestimate +25% infantry vs. base....

Marine speeders, however, are great. They do need to be backed up by a couple of 1-AAA-1s, but a full-on seige can totally devastate even a well-garrisoned base.

edit: HTML
[This message has been edited by mark13 (edited December 06, 2000).]

	07-12-2000 14:39									#17
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Yes, +25% is nice. However, if you mean "Marines" in the standard way (ie. like it's designed by the game, that is with armor), then they are so expensive that I can probably build 2 rovers for the price of one marine, so it doesn't matter much if I lose one or two as they are easily replaced.

Now if the marines are non-armored that's another story.

Aredhran

	08-12-2000 03:15									#19
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Skand,

Kudos, My friend! You bring up a very good point use of forces that you have readily available.

And this is probably more often than not why I didn't necessarily use or explain use of amphib speeder marines. Most times I end up garisonning bases with 1-1-1 trance or 1-1-1 police units. I'll simply strip them and upgrade them enroute from bases I have IF I choose to do an early conquering of the seas.

Most times though, my intention is to capture AI land bases first and in doing so eliminate their industrial capability i.e. the mineral rich bases. That being said sea bases normally are mop up.

The difference is when a trans-continental invasionis required. Inthose case I will either conquer a sea base in order to stage an invasion or simply create my own.

However, back to my original point. Flexibility and usage of existing assets wisely. You illustrated a good approach in doing so.

My only real point here is if given the time (and time is a cost here as well) the cost in mins and energy to prepare the assets you used vs. the marine approach ends up being more costly I think (however if it allowed you a quicker conqest than building those other units getting them into place and doing the invasion it probably was worth it).

Assets you used
3 missiles
3 needlejets
1 IOD
1 missile Cruiser

Total 8 units
Mineral Value - ??? Don't know off the top of my head

Assets for Marines Approach
1 transport
4 marines (either speeder or infantry)
1 needlejet (preferably tactical)

Total 6 units - Min value expected to be less than above but agin I can't remember this stuff

Long story short tho' best laid plans are out the window as soon as they put into action. When you need to accomplish an objective you use what you can where you can.

Good luck and Good hunting!

Og

PS. Red H,

Nahh! Your exactly right infantry based Marines in the context of a fully armored infantry unit is simply wasting perfectly good energy in the upgrade. No all my 1-1-1's get the upgrade to best weapon - 1- 1 best reactor amphibious configuration. Never armor.

But your point and D-dads are right on the money speeder chassis is probably the right way to go even w/o the +25% bonus. What can I say, I'm lazy and strip the units from existing bases. Leaving those bases to replace the 1-1-1 next turn.


[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited December 07, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited December 07, 2000).]

	08-12-2000 14:45									#20
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Hi Ogie!

I have used some sort of the marine tactik in my current game, with good succes:

Loaded two marine-X-rovers on a transport and visited Marr's seabases (evil grin).

This bunch could blast a size-seven-seabase into nothing in one turn.

Destroid one base totally and conquered two, now nice
bases for my X-Choppers.

Greetings Skanderbeg

	08-12-2000 18:16									#21
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Skanderbeg, you can't build nerve gas missiles, but you can build nerve gas choppers, then send them on suicide missions to deep enemy bases...move to max, take the damage, move to max, range of 24 I think.

In my current SP game, the AI is using a lot of missiles against me, more effectively than I've ever seen before. Marr is basically doing the typical human denial strategy, hitting my exposed bases with waves of missiles and taking out all the defenders, forcing me to re-adjust my position, move more defenders in, etc. He'll probably keep doing it until I finish nerve gassing him into oblivion.

	09-12-2000 10:19									#22
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The lack of nerve gas missiles can be remedied.
All you have to do is go into AlphaX.txt, and add the following line to the section marked #UNITS.

Nerve Gas Missile, Missile, Conventional, Scout, -1, 0, 0, Orbital, -1, 00000100000000000000000000

Also, increase the number just below the header by one.

	09-12-2000 06:15									#23
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As my favorite faction is the Pirates, I generally take the all naval approach on sea bases, while occasionally using jets. As far as missiles go, I find them to be almost completely ineffective in late-midgame because of available armor and abilities (i.e. I saw one of my AAA 8-res cruisers take 3 missile hits out of a base, and many non AAA units taking up to 2 in a base w/aerospace complex). In that particular game (Librarian), Domai had managed to accumulate 80+ missiles. No problem though when you consider the number it took to destroy just one of my units.

	09-12-2000 20:11									#24
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As the AI never uses it, though, I find it is very often the single most unbalancing aspect of SP play, and so never use it. I had a go once and gassed the Caretakers, who I was level on the chart with, to extinction in a matter of a handful of turns - it makes the game far too easy, IMO.

On the subject of missiles, however, I think they are most effective when the armor level is no more than 6, as any 1-6AAA-1 unit protected by a Space Complex can fend off any missile coming its way. As such, they are an effective weapon for a time - after that, they become useless, as conventional (if you'll excuse the pun ) weaponry is often more powerful, and a *lot* cheaper for multiple uses.

	10-12-2000 21:32									#25
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Why do people keep talking about noodles?

	11-12-2000 08:51									#26
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If you are playing a "Green" faction, with the Dream Twister SP and a strong "Planet" rating, Locusts of Chiron are great for taking seabases. Especially on large maps where the distances are great. Demon Boils usually have no trouble, even against AAA defenders. The planet rating gives I think a 30% boost on attack, and the Dream Twister a 50% bonus. If you have a ship handy to weaken the defenders with artillery fire, so much the better. And the locusts in combo with marines in a transport are a good option too. The Locusts can act as air cover for the transport. Most Interceptors wont hardly even put a dent in them. And using air power and marines together, stops the AI from building all AAA units for defense. There is a secret project thats provides additional PSI defense, too. I forget the name.

	11-12-2000 10:40									#28
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I've seen the AI use Nerve Gas, but only on the factions more aggressive option. In one of these games Morgan was using it against Zak. When Zak finally knocked him down to 2-3 bases Morgan went suicidal. He proceeded to obliterate his remaining bases until he eliminated himself from the game. It was interesting to watch atleast.