07-01-2003 09:51									#1
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Ok, this thread will be for the discussion of our future growth as a nation. I have emailed Vondrack a map of our current visable land, with sites for future cities denoted. Once he posts it, I will explain what it means and my reasoning for each selection.

	07-01-2003 16:38									#2
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Good idea. I think we can safely assume that we will have the time and space to grow as we decide.

	07-01-2003 22:55									#3
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As I managed to brilliantly forget to put my map attachement with my email to Vondrack, the map will be somewhat delayed. I am a simple builder of plastic-block structures; these crazy com-pew-ters are a mystery to me

	08-01-2003 01:22									#4
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX As I managed to brilliantly forget to put my map attachement with my email to Vondrack, the map will be somewhat delayed. I am a simple builder of plastic-block structures; these crazy com-pew-ters are a mystery to me

I got your resent message just minutes before leaving for a Chinese massage... thus the delay.

Here is the picture:

	08-01-2003 03:34									#5
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Nice. I disagree with the southernmost city, though; I think it should be moved one tile SW Edit: SE; I don't think we can have a city that's literally coastal . Hills are a valuable combo with the fertile grasslands in that area, and it will put the wheat Flood Plains in the city's radius. Also, there will be less overlap with a city northwest of there near the grassland wheat.

	08-01-2003 09:32									#6
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Ok, now that everyone can see the map, I can talk about it. Obviously, the red circles are proposed city sites, but of course none of them are by any means final.

The canal city location is pretty set, unless something amazing is lurking further up the isthmus. Kloreep: those are some good thoughts aboutt the southern city. I may have to reconsider that one. As for the large circle, I would like to see more of the area before making a more precise selection.

As we learn more about the lands around us, I will update thhe map accordingly.

	08-01-2003 09:55									#7
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Another good potential city location is NE of the western wheat in the south. That would grow fairly quickly due to the wheat and the nearby grasslands but would also eventually get the gold and have nearby hills and mountains.

Regarding the southern city, I am split between Zargon's and Kloreep's suggested city sites as both have merit. I hope that our exploration to the east of there will help with that decision.

I agree that the canal city in the west is a logical location - however if there is a civ west of us we may want to block the isthmus with a city (though that can be a double edged sword if we lost that type of city).

I suspect that Angus's current location east of the dyes may be another potential good location although we would need to clear a lot of jungle first of course.

	08-01-2003 10:17									#8
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Yes, Angus' spot looks nice with grassland.

Which brings up another question: When should we stop REXing and start RIMing? (Rapid IMprovement. IOW, worker building.) This jungle just begs to be cleared & irrigated to support some hill mining.

	08-01-2003 11:13									#9
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The end of REXing is to far in the future for me to contemplate. We will need to settle all of our available "good" land before we really tackle the jungle IMHO.

	09-01-2003 09:01									#10
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I think we should first spread cities near our capital then expand further out. I would put our next settler on the Dye fields, we need to secure them quickly and use them to quell unrest in our cities.

	09-01-2003 09:03									#11
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I dont want to start a new thread for this and dont know were else to post it so I will post it here. I really think that we need to start producing workers soon to start clearing the jungle that is near our cities. If we want to grow we will need to clear all of this jungle.

	13-01-2003 12:03									#12
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Right, I have just sent a new part of the plan to Vondrack to deal with our latest windfall. Again, once he posts, I will explain...

	13-01-2003 12:37									#13
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX Right, I have just sent a new part of the plan to Vondrack to deal with our latest windfall. Again, once he posts, I will explain...

Here it is:

	13-01-2003 13:48									#14
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Okay, so there it is. Basically, the blue X is my proposed site for our new settler friend, and the red X is reserved for a future settler. My resoning is that these two sites provide minor overlap, but give both cities good production and growth tiles. The space marked "1" would be a shared floodplain, but most likely marked off for the red city, as the blue will have the wheat to satisfy a good portion of its food needs.

Of course, this could all change depending on what lurks in the darkness southwest of the blue X...

	13-01-2003 14:19									#15
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I do agree with these two sites (there seems to be nothing bad SE of the Farmerville site - see the latest Chronicle update).

I have played a bit with a general layout of our cities and hope to be able to post a neat plan later today. For now, I will just note that the two sites you point out are the same in my own plan and they are very high on my priority list.

	13-01-2003 17:31									#16
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OK, being barely able to move after this "do something for your health" weekend (someone tell me why I was doing that... five ricochet matches on Saturday, three more squash matches on Sunday... every one at least half an hour... I almost died of exhaustion... ), I decided to spend some time thinking over our expansion plans. With Farmerville almost founded, we better put together some plan, because things should go much faster now.

First, the picture:



Here is a couple of thoughts on what I was thinking of... I'll discuss the cities approximately in the order of their importance, as perceived by myself, though there are still factors that may shuffle the order quite a bit.

EXISTING CITIES

Legopolis, Jackson
Already founded (I guess Jackson will remain Jackson, even though I initially used the name as a placeholder only... ). I would like to see both these cities to focus on building units, improvements, and maybe even wonders ASAP, as they have a great production potential with a minimum corruption/waste problem. Once Farmerville is up and running, I would like to see Legopolis and Jackson stop seeing settlers and workers as a priority and focus on improvements and units. Namely: one of the cities (preferrably Legopolis, because of its central location) should build barracks and start cranking out veteran military units that will serve as garrisons in newly founded cities. This is because when units are upgraded, they return back to the rank they were built with. Regulars are always upgraded to regulars, even if they'd fought all the way to an elite. I consider building regular military units a waste of shields. Unless we discover an immediate military threat in the SE, I would like to stop building regular military units and move on to veterans.

Speaking more time-specific, I believe we should build one more settler in Jackson, one worker (after a Merc) in Legopolis, and then start using both cities as productionhouses, spitting a worker here and there only to prevent any overcrowding, while not artificially hampering the growth of these cities.

TIER 1 CITY SITES

Farmerville
This one will probably be founded on the very next turn. With the extreme abundance of food in the area, this city should for all the foreseeable future remain a settler/worker farm. I agree with building a worker first, to mine the bonus grasslands, perhaps irrigate the wheat etc.

TIER 2 CITY SITES

Red Brick
A city I tentatively named Red Brick for myself (Spiffor's name, actually ) is the one between Legopolis and Farmerville (the green one). You may not 100% agree with me about the importance of this site, but here is why I would like to see it founded soon: the southern parts of our empire need to be road connected to the core area north of the jungle, otherwise moving units between these areas will take forever. If we found Red Brick on the strategically well positioned tile protected by rivers from three sides, it will effectively clear one jungle tile for us, leaving only two more (N and N-N of the Red Brick site) to be cleared in order to have a passage suitable for building a road. Besides, the site is quite close to Legopolis and should thus have a pretty low corruption/waste (C&W) - thanks to the rivers there and its proximity to Legopolis, Red Brick could bring LOTS of gold to our treasury. If we work the two forest tiles (E and SE of the city site), perhaps even chopping one down, we should be able to build a temple there soon - and the outer tile ring encloses four grassland tiles that would ensure steady growth of the city.

Panama
Knowing that the isthmus probably leads to a peninsula only, the strategic importance of this site is close to zero. However, its proximity to Legopolis and the game forest tile make it a good city site anyway... Its problem is that without further improvements (like plains irrigation and jungle clearing), it will grow slowly after hitting pop 2. That's why I put it slightly behind the Red Brick site now.

Forkmouth
Another tentative name for the "cyan" site at the Threefork River delta, east of Farmerville. This site is just too good to be overlooked for too long... but the problem is that it would take 9 turns to get our Legopolis settler there. That's about twice as much as to Red Brick or Panama sites. Plus, it is quite far away from the capital and we are likely to suffer heavy C&W problems down there. I would probably assign this site to the first Farmerville settler.

TIER 3 CITY SITES

Dye Fields
It seems that the game is actually being played on less than Regent (Legopolis would have no unhappy citizens with pop 3, even if left ungarrisoned). Thus, connecting the luxuries has pretty low priority. As the principal problem of the Dye Fields site is that - barring jungle clearing - it will grow very slowly. For now, it would be a wasted settler, I believe. However, later on, when we manage to clear the jungle on at least two dye tiles, allowing for the road to be built to the city site, this city, so close to the capital, shall be just gushing cash.

Sharpehaven
Another tent... ah, you know already... This is the "blue" site in the southwestern part of the landmass, with the wheat and gold in its radius. You may object the placement, wishing it to be one tile SW... well, I tried that and eventually decided it would not be very wise. We would actually be sacrificing three (otherwise completely unused/wasted) hill tiles plus one more tile overlap with Forkmouth for having the wheat tile in the inner ring and one extra grassland tile. Pretty bad deal, IMHO. I would rather put up with a slower start, build a temple or library there, and grab the wheat tile only after expanding the city radius.

TIER 4 CITY SITES

Suez
That's the site on the other end of the isthmus. This site may (and probably will) still move a bit, if Howard spots any fish or whales after climbing the mountain... Even if there is nothing of interest up there, it may still be wise to found that city on the middle hill (NE of the grassland tile) - we would sacrifice one forest plain tile for one extra food from the (city) hill tile plus better defense bonus and greater visibility radius.

Kloreepville
Sorry, Kloreep, I was just running out of names, so one of the most sucking sites got (temporarily!) your name... Just come up with something I could name this site (Sucker Bay? ) and I will change it. Well, yes, that's the site on the east coast, roughly E of Legopolis... I cant think of a reasonable reason other than grabbing the land. The site may once be fine, but it will need LOTS of jungle clearing...

North Outpost
You guessed it, that's the cyan one next to the giant mountains on the northern tip of our landmass. Just landgrab (hoping for iron), nothing else. Even though with a harbour, the city can grow to pop 12 and be thus a fine source of gold... But speaking productionwise, it will always be mostly just a poor relative...

At the moment, my personal ladder would be:

Farmerville
Red Brick
Forkmouth/Panama

Dye Fields
Sharpehaven
North Outpost
Suez
Kloreepville

Of course, what we discover further to the S/SE may have crucial impact on this order. However, the first four are unlikely to change.

	14-01-2003 05:47									#17
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Hmm... all good. Though I want to once again petition for Forkmouth to be moved SE; it will overlap more with farmerville, but give the city an extra hill.

And that actually isn't a half bad spot for Kloreepville; it may look like nothing now, but once the workers road all around, clear and irrigate jungle, and mine a few hills, that city will be a powerhouse!

	14-01-2003 07:56									#18
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quote: OK, being barely able to move after this "do something for your health" weekend (someone tell me why I was doing that... I almost died of exhaustion...

What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger... and don't forget ... living is hazardous to your health

Nice analysis, Vondrack ! Very thorough!

My 2 cents...

I agree with the suggested city locations - like you I originally thought that "Sharpehaven" should be located right beside the wheat but you do bring up a good point about the hills. We should be able to concentrate on a temple first by that point I hope. However, its final location will depend heavily on Forkmouth's location.

My personal ladder (never heard that term before) would be:

Farmerville
then Panama
then Redbrick

Farmerville is obvious, though we will have to explore more east too.

Panama is my next preference due to the probable presence of the western land mass - it would be to our advantage to have a port on the western coast asap. The food won't be much of a problem initially and with a worker irrigating the plains it should grow to size 4 with little difficulty, however after that it may be a problem.

Redbrick is a good location too, though we will need to mine the grassland asap and clear the jungle as well. If it wasn't for the western landmass problem, I would possibly favor this location first; however, we will need more workers before we colonize this location.

Sharpehaven will be a great location as will Forkmouth - but corruption will be a problem until we get the Forbidden Palace (I suggest either Farmerville, Forkmouth or possibly Redbrick for that small wonder)

DyeFields and Kloreepville have massive jungle problems and will be good locations, once we have cleared the jungle somewhat.

My suggestion would be to found Farmerville and send the Legopolis settler west to Panama.

As for Jackson, a question is whether it can build a settler before reaching size 4. If so, it should build a settler that will become Redbrick. Otherwise, build a worker.

I think that regardless, Legopolis should build a worker as soon as it gets back to size 2 - as we are soon reaching the point where we are going to really need workers.

My gut feeling is that one of the missing civs is on the western landmass and that another civ is to the southeast of us. If we find a civ SE of us, Redbrick and Forkmouth go way up in the priority list.

	14-01-2003 11:36									#19
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It does look very good. Great work, Radek

As for Forkmouth, I don't think we need to move it SE; in the suggested position it'll have 2 (or even 3) hills and 2 deserts that can be mined. We can also mine the bonus grasslands, so I think Vondrack's proposal is good enough, no need to move it.

I agree to move the settler production to Farmerville. Thus Legopolis could build units, workers from time to time and maybe even wonders. I'd like to see that we start building our first wonder soon!! I'd go for the Colossus in Jackson (I suggest we rename it later Port Jackson).

Just a word about North Outpost: even though this is very far away in the future, with the addition of Commercial docks, harbors are now extremly good cities, even without production; the gold output could be awesome.

The proposed founding orders are fine; I agree also with Sharpe about the necessity of workers soon.

	14-01-2003 13:10									#20
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I would also be against moving Forkmouth at all. I think the proposed location is good as is.

Using Farmville as a settler center seems the most obvious choice, and probably the most effective one. It will make settling the southern areas much easier, and any lands that we may find beyond.

barring any upcoming developments, I think the current proposals are quite good.

	14-01-2003 13:29									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Hmm... all good. Though I want to once again petition for Forkmouth to be moved SE; it will overlap more with farmerville, but give the city an extra hill.

Well, as Tiberius correctly points out, Forkmouth will be able to work three hill tiles, plus three bonus, possibly mined grasslands, plus two mined desert tiles. That should make it a production powerhouse even without that extra hill. Besides, we would get one extra hill, but lose another one in the West - the one in the overlap with Sharpehaven, as Sharpehaven has hills more than enough, it is almost certain that we will be able to assign the overlapping one to Forkmouth... Plus, we would lose one grassland, one bonus grassland, and one overlapped grassland for one desert, one overlapped desert, and one overlapped wheat floodplain (not mentioning giving up a nice city defense bonus). That sounds like a pretty bad deal to me...

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep And that actually isn't a half bad spot for Kloreepville; it may look like nothing now, but once the workers road all around, clear and irrigate jungle, and mine a few hills, that city will be a powerhouse!

Do I understand it correctly that you are happy with that city? Then it's yours forever...

BTW, everybody, see my post in the City Names thread, please, and comment there or here regarding the city names.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger... and don't forget ... living is hazardous to your health

Oh, that's right... just that you never know what actually kills you...

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe My personal ladder (never heard that term before) would be:

Perhaps, because I used the term incorrectly? Mind you, I am not a native speaker - if "ladder" does not fit in this context, please, tell me (I love improving my English, I really do ).

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe Farmerville then Panama then Redbrick Farmerville is obvious, though we will have to explore more east too. Panama is my next preference due to the probable presence of the western land mass - it would be to our advantage to have a port on the western coast asap. The food won't be much of a problem initially and with a worker irrigating the plains it should grow to size 4 with little difficulty, however after that it may be a problem.

This is a good point about the need of having a port close to the western landmass. A very good point. Did not think of that before... especially if we order Jackson to build a wonder (Colossus or Lighthouse), we will need another decent port to build our galleys. Panama would be just fine.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe Sharpehaven will be a great location as will Forkmouth - but corruption will be a problem until we get the Forbidden Palace (I suggest either Farmerville, Forkmouth or possibly Redbrick for that small wonder)

Well, I'd be rather hesitant to speak about Forbidden Palace this early. Chatting with Nimitz yesterday, I realized he brought up a very good point - should we get off our landmass soon enough, we might be able to establish a foothold on another landmass (primarily in order to get at least one more luxury - we do have abundance of Dyes, but nothing else...). It would only be natural to build the Palace there then... As far as the known landmass of ours is concerned, Legopolis is almost ideally located... building Forbidden Palace in Red Brick or Farmerville sounds almost like wasting its effects... But I do admit this is just a speculation for the time being. Just thought I would mention the idea.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe As for Jackson, a question is whether it can build a settler before reaching size 4. If so, it should build a settler that will become Redbrick. Otherwise, build a worker.

No need to worry about pop 4. The game is actually not Regent, but almost certainly Chieftain (I tried to remove the garrison from Legopolis, when attempting to solve the double production problem yesterday, and to my surprise, the three guys in the city remained content!). Sir Ralph later confirmed my observation. So, I believe that building a settler in Jackson is a no brainer.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe I think that regardless, Legopolis should build a worker as soon as it gets back to size 2 - as we are soon reaching the point where we are going to really need workers.

That would mean building a worker right after the settler, I think. Legopolis should be pop+1 in 6 turns, the settler will be done in 2 turns. After the settler completion, the production will drop to 3 shields, which makes the worker to take 4 turns - which should be exactly the time Legopolis grows again.

However, I would insert another Mercenary (or Archer) between the settler and worker. Depleting the Legopolis population so drastically would make it very weak production-wise, forcing it to operate on pop 1/prod 3 for full seven turns... I do not think we need the worker THAT badly, as the newly founded cities mostly have a tile or two that are fine to work even without any improvements. If we build a Merc first, a worker then, and something else later, this something else should be done MUCH earlier (anyone feeling like running a sim? I am just guessing regarding this... I do have some non-DG stuff to do today...).

	22-01-2003 13:45									#22
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For our next round of settlement:

I think the settler from Jackson should be used to found the Red Bricks site. The first settler issue from Farmerville should found Forkmouth.

	22-01-2003 14:18									#23
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX For our next round of settlement: I think the settler from Jackson should be used to found the Red Bricks site. The first settler issue from Farmerville should found Forkmouth.

Agreed. Even if the Red Bricks site is currently pretty mediocre, it is the missing link between the Northern and Southern parts of our empire. I would go the same way.

	22-01-2003 14:25									#24
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The first thing Red Bricks should build is a worker.
The second thing: well, a worker wouldn't hurt (if possible)

	22-01-2003 14:30									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius The first thing Red Bricks should build is a worker. The second thing: well, a worker wouldn't hurt (if possible)

Agreed. It should take 10 turns to build the worker. The same 10 turns Red Bricks will need to go pop+1. Only after the city generates two workers that will clear its ring, it will be time to make it a regular "productive" city.