07-01-2003 23:35									#31
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I still think that against immortals on flat terrain, cost for cost, WCs are better units than swordsmen.

You say it. On flat terrain. Given they mix their attack stack 1:1 Immortals and Spearmen, we attack cheap Spearmen, our winning or retreating WCs stop before their nose and get slaughtered by their Immortals. With this tactic, they can get to the gates of EotS, without risking too much.

	07-01-2003 23:46									#32
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There is no harm in proposing it. We can always reject what they offer.

Regarding WCs versus Immortals (and accompanying spearmen), unless the WCs have already used up 1 of their 2 moves, they will have the opportunity to pull back after killing a unit or retreating from battle. If, for instance, an immortal/spear stack moves into our land, two tiles from our nearest city (where our WCs are), and there is at least a road on the tile inbetween the city and the border, getting next to the invasion stack takes 1/3 of a move, attacking takes 1 move, and then the WCs can pull back into the city.

The key is keeping their troops off of rough terrain. This is true in any situation, but is especially true with a unit like Immortals. Therefore, when we construct our northern defenses/cities, we have to have that clearly in mind. Our defenses must be set up to herd any invasion force onto poor defensive terrain. Mountains must be roaded for WC access, and cities situated such that spearman defenders can be shuffled between the cities and the mountains, depending on what the invader does.

If they come with 1:1 spearmen/immortals, they are sacrificing a lot of offensive punch for defense. Accordingly, denying them the highground becomes easier (if we have say.... 4 spearmen fortified on the mountain they want to take, and they have 10 immortals... is it really worth it from their perspective to fight that fight? Odds are they lose 3-6 immortals taking that mountain). Alternatively, if they go Immortal-heavy, our WCs have an easier "whittling" job.

-Arrian

	07-01-2003 23:57									#33
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That means we engage the stacks only when they are already damn close to our cities. Also, the (future) northern cities, which are most vulnerable to get the first wave, won't have already roads, because I bet our economists will favor to improve our core first.

	08-01-2003 00:02									#34
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True. But we need many workers anyhow.

I still think that offering the wheel will get their attention, but that a PM should accompany it, certainly if we would like to make a 2-stage deal. Oh, and we need to be careful how to phrase it: otherwise Vox will be glad to accept the deal most favourable for them (the first one), and decline the last.

DeepO

	08-01-2003 00:07									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph So shall I send propose The Wheel in the diplo screen next turn, before they trade it with somebody else and we lose the opportunity? I think a decision is urgent.

I would suggest go ahead and put up The Wheel on the diplomatic screen, but at the same time, we send them a PM indicating that this is acceptable only as part of a two-stage deal that also involves our Alphabet for their Iron Working once we get Alphabet. And maybe send the PM to everyone on the team in the hope that someone will actually read it in time to do some good for a change. (We can go ahead and send the PM before our turn comes.)

Nathan

	08-01-2003 00:39									#36
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Nathan, don't PM them until we received our turn, and know they haven't backstabbed us in some way! Also, if they let Grog pass, I suggest not demanding for another trade later on (demanding wouldn't be good at any rate, BTW), but suggest it to them as a show of good will. "Good, you hold on to your word, we will give you a favorable deal"

Also... it could of course be so that they are currently researching the wheel.. hasn't been mentioned yet, but maybe they simply don't want it, as the wheel would end in just a few turns time.

DeepO

	08-01-2003 00:44									#37
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quote: That means we engage the stacks only when they are already damn close to our cities. Also, the (future) northern cities, which are most vulnerable to get the first wave, won't have already roads, because I bet our economists will favor to improve our core first.

There is no point in developing a core we stand a good chance of losing. Once we get our southern core built, I say we beeline for a northern border town and then backfill the poorer northern terrain sites. We've GOT to get a decent defensive position set up to prevent Vox from using the Spinebreaker mountains as an invasion route - in other words, we need to be able to stop them short of the mountains or at the very least give them a very bloody nose.

IF this is done, I would send at least 1, perhaps 2, workers along with the settler team. Task 1: build a road to the new city. Task 2: build roads on all tiles north of the city (the city placement I'm thinking of will be north of the jungle, so no clearing will be necessary). Task 3: maybe build a fortress on a strategic location (hill, mountain... damn I wish I had the map memorized. I have a general idea of the northern geography, but it's a little fuzzy). Task 4: spend the next centuries chopping down jungle in case a Voxian attack breaks through our northern city and we have to fall back to a secondary defensive position.

The border city would build: temple (10 turns + rush), walls (straight up 20 turns), barracks (20 turns + rush).

-Arrian

	08-01-2003 00:48									#38
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Only one addition to this plan, Arrian: settle a city near the incense, to both prevent anyone else with a galley settling it, and to get the extra lux which we can use in our pumps.

Oh, and some of that building in that city can be done by chopping forest, IIRC. It should be anyway, because otherwise it is going to take 50 turns to build up, which is quite long

DeepO

	08-01-2003 01:09									#39
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If nothing bad happened, I will offer them The Wheel through the diplo screen. Diplomats: please prepare a covering note and PM it to BetaHound, Eli and Dissident (may be Jon Miller too?) as soon as I post the "Turn sent" message in the "Turn 27" thread.

	08-01-2003 02:03									#40
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Why not send it to their e-mails too?

	08-01-2003 05:42									#41
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Regarding the settlement of a northern border city, I've looked at the screenshot again, and I figure the best spot is 1 tile south of Grog, on the hill. If Vox settles "the neck" first, however, we may have border issues w/respect to the hill Grog is standing on. Depending on how things shake out, we may want to back up our town.

The purpose is to either make them trade Immortals for spearmen (spearman in fort on hill = defense of 4, does fortification of the unit in the fort provide further bonus? If so, it's 4.5) or move out onto flat land where we can hit them hard with WCs.

This is a ways off, of course but there's no harm in thinking ahead.

Once we settle the south, the gold hill, and the incense, I think we ought to beeline northward and then backfill.

-Arrian