07-01-2003 13:43									#1
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Unless Vox moves out of our way, they have us in a box. They can share research with someone, and we can't. There are two basic ways out of that box. One is to conquer Vox, which, if Vox turns into a porcupine behind their chokepoint, would be a lot easier said than done. (See DeepO's suggested Vox strategy in the "Vox's point of view" thread.) The other is to go for Map Making and do an end run around the chokepoint to get contact.

If we want to use the Map Making approach, I think we're best off getting Warrior Code (in case of a minor incursion not worth blowing a GA over) and then beelining for Map Making. Against any serious attack, we use WCs, and we focus on building cities in locations WCs can defend. That overcomes the problem of only Vox having contact with the rest of the world as early as possible, a lot earlier than we'd be able to mount a military assault with any realistic chance of victory if Vox plays well. Not being able to settle safely in areas we'd need swords to defend effectively would cramp us a little if disease doesn't slow us down, but not too badly. We could also try trading to Vox for some military techs and hope their greed for playing tech broker overcomes their fear of trading anything we could use militarily. (Note that trades don't necessarily hurt us relative to Vox so much as they help the overall tech pace go more quickly. A fast tech pace in our area is a bad thing if we're counting on defeating Vox before they get pikes, but may actually be a good one if our long-term plan is to use trade ourselves to gain an advantage relative to the rest of the world.)

If we go the military route, we have to dedicate ourselves completely to conquering Vox as quickly as we can. That would be expensive, and would set us back considerably both in research and in city improvements compared with other teams, but doing the job halfway would hurt us a lot worse. The more I think about such an approach, the more I hate it because even assuming we can win against Vox, we'll probably blow our chance of winning the game. That's especially true if Vox decides to die fighting rather than give us anything of significant value in return for a peace treaty that would leave them in a hopeless situation anyhow. (In other words, don't count on getting anything through extortion.)

I'm starting to lean heavily in the direction of a beeline to Map Making (probably with a detour through Warrior Code first) and trying to maintain peaceful and constructive relations with Vox for the time being. The military risk should be small given that they don't have barracks yet and have so far to travel to reach us (not to mention the apparent total lack of warriors in their cities waiting to be upgraded at present), and I think it's by far our best chance of winning the game (as opposed to just beating Vox and then finding ourselves horribly behind the rest of the world).

By the way, in a test run I just did, even with disease striking shortly after building the third settler, Map Making came in 1425 BC. That's somewhere in the neighborhood of 35 turns from now if my calculations are right, and long before we could mount a credible attack. A detour through Warrior Code (which I skipped) would add about three turns.

Nathan

	07-01-2003 14:08									#2
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Interesting. I agree with the mapmaking being researched, we cannot allow ourselves to be boxed in just because another nation occupies our only route out of our peninsula. Mapmaking and harbors will put us back in contention.

One question: Do any other teams have starting location info on Vox? Knowing this, we could find out exactly how far it is for them to get to us; how long it takes for them to raid our peninsula.

I don't think trading map info with the Voxians would be a good idea at all, so perhaps we can find a middleman?

	07-01-2003 14:20									#3
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Give DeepO a lot of the credit for my conversion toward favoring a peaceful route. His persistence shook me out of a militaristic rut my thinking was getting caught in.

Personally, I'd be happy to trade minimaps with Vox considering how much more they know about our side of the chokepoint than we know ahout theirs. Not that I wouldn't like getting the information from a third party without giving our information up even better.

Nathan

	07-01-2003 14:59									#4
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Peace. The REX phase is no time to fight.


Dominae

	07-01-2003 15:04									#5
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Agreed, peace. But we can't REX like in an SP game, completely neglecting our defense, because we can be sure that the AI is REXing too. I strongly suggest to research both Bronze Working and Iron Working, before we go for Map Making. Both we should be able to get at reduced cost, because Vox most likely has it. Mind you, that they know about our weakness as long as they have "Bronze Working" enabled in their tech section in the diplo screen. Btw, they don't have The Wheel yet. About Pottery I'll know next turn.

	07-01-2003 15:15									#6
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Getting Map Making fast is an excellent idea. However, there's a faster way of gaining contacts, at least with Vox's other neighbor:
We turn to the ambassadors of the other teams one by one and ask if they've met Vox Controli yet. We'll tell them that if they answer back positively then we'll give them directions to our location, provided that they give us a minimap with Vox's location, only to prove that they did meet Vox of course. We may find an ally in Vox's second neighbor, especially if it's the Legos.

	07-01-2003 15:44									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Getting Map Making fast is an excellent idea. However, there's a faster way of gaining contacts, at least with Vox's other neighbor: We turn to the ambassadors of the other teams one by one and ask if they've met Vox Controli yet. We'll tell them that if they answer back positively then we'll give them directions to our location, provided that they give us a minimap with Vox's location, only to prove that they did meet Vox of course. We may find an ally in Vox's second neighbor, especially if it's the Legos.

That approach to getting contacts would be much faster if it works, but it's not something we can count on at this point.

	07-01-2003 15:55									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Agreed, peace. But we can't REX like in an SP game, completely neglecting our defense, because we can be sure that the AI is REXing too. I strongly suggest to research both Bronze Working and Iron Working, before we go for Map Making. Both we should be able to get at reduced cost, because Vox most likely has it. Mind you, that they know about our weakness as long as they have "Bronze Working" enabled in their tech section in the diplo screen. Btw, they don't have The Wheel yet. About Pottery I'll know next turn.

The funny thing is, the less good a job Vox does of analysis, the more likely they would be to view our not having Bronze Working as a sign of weakness. A good player would consider it likely that Egypt simply doesn't care about Bronze Working because they expect WCs to be an adequate defense - especially considering how little spearmen are worth against immortals. But a less good player might miss that nuance.

I suppose if you want Iron Working that badly, it won't be that big a deal. Bronze+Iron instead of Warrior Code would only delay Map Making by about five turns or so, and that shouldn't kill us; most likely, it won't matter at all, but it could cost us a trade or two if the timing's wrong.

Nathan

	07-01-2003 15:56									#9
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Are we at least going to give this a try?

	07-01-2003 15:58									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Are we at least going to give this a try?

One of the big ideas behind minimap exchanges is to try to find out who Vox's other neighbor is. I definitely want us to try to arrange a rendezvous if possible.

Nathan

	07-01-2003 16:12									#11
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Then let's make it so!
I suggest that we start with Legoland. Let's ask them if they've already met Vox Controli, and tell them that if they have, we could provide them with accurate information of our whereabouts so that we could meet.

	07-01-2003 16:41									#12
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay A good player would consider it likely that Egypt simply doesn't care about Bronze Working because they expect WCs to be an adequate defense

Battle is always a give and take. The best odds attacking WCs can get is 2 : 2.2, and even if they win a battle or retreat, they will die in the counterstrike due to their low defense value. The best odds Immortals can get is 4 : 1.1. Both odds are not in our favor. WCs are fast units and can retreat. In return, injured Immortals can resort to mountains and jungle, where they are safer than in the Bank of England. We have plenty of both. True, WCs are cheaper, but a WC that defeated an Immortal is most likely injured and off battle for at least 2 turns. An Immortal, who defeated a WC is in most cases still healthy.

quote: ...especially considering how little spearmen are worth against immortals. But a less good player might miss that nuance.

Even a less good player knows, that Bronze Working is the prerequisite of Iron Working.

	07-01-2003 16:53									#13
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Sir Ralph is right: although our WCs do have a tactical edge by being able to retreat, they by no means trump Immortals. I believe the reason why we may think so is that in SP it is all too easy to dispatch of even the largest Immortal SOD, with proper planning. In the hands a human player, I doubt repelling them will be that easy. It's our best defense, so we may as well use it, bet let's not overestimate our chances, either.

I still vote for Warrior Code first. It seems to cover all the bases (war, peace, trade, contact, prerequisites, you name it).


Dominae

	07-01-2003 17:25									#14
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Absolutely yes. We should not let SP habits and guesses lead our MP strategy. That would be gambling. I guess we all don't have much MP experience. But MP empires shall be built rock solid. Economy, military and exploration are all important, but to favor economy and exploration in order to get a good military or some better trades somewhere in the future may prove to be fatal in the present. I know, this has been stressed enough, but I repeat it anyway: We're not playing the AI.

	07-01-2003 17:39									#15
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I like the idea of going for map making, but I have to agree with Sir Ralph (and others) that we should get Iron Working first. There are just too many advantages to having swords to pass on them (I won't go over all the reasons again, it's been discussed at length).

Going for MM after IW will also put us (relatively) close to the republic, which I like because 1) we are religions (little anarchy + cheap temples), 2) we have 2 luxuries, 3) It will probably be a less traveled tech path. But I guess that's a discussion for a different thread .

	07-01-2003 18:11									#16
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Give DeepO a lot of the credit for my conversion toward favoring a peaceful route. His persistence shook me out of a militaristic rut my thinking was getting caught in.

You're welcome And it's always good to convert someone to the light side

I agree with getting mapmaking fast, of course, and I generally think that route is going to have a lot of bonusses. For our military purposes (which we absolutely do not have to forget, Vox will be conquered if I have any vote in this!), catapults should be reconsidered: so far I have seen no comments on it. Personally, I believe they will save the day in our situation: we will get, after expansion, a lot of cities, and a lot of production. Further, we will need to concentrate much of that force on one point only: the Neck. This is ideal for bombardment... (which will also provide some covering fire against counterattacking immortals).

As to which tech to research: I don't know. BW seems best, if only to push the Voxians in using immortals if they decide to attack us. IW would be nice too, but I'd try to trade that, if possible. Once we get there, we should have a lot more insight in our diplomatic stance to Vox, which could still be very tradeable.

The comment of us trading with Vox will not necessarily be a bad thing, it will give Vox more techs then us, but speed up general research in our area, which in turn favors us is a very valid one. Think about it: if the research pace increases, the civs with most research will benefit most. And who is that? Us. And it will get worse for the other teams: if we get the chance to expand peacefully, eventually building libraries everywhere, no warring civ can catch us

DeepO

	07-01-2003 19:02									#17
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"I like this plan. I'm excited to be a part of it. Let's do it!" - Ghostbusters.

BW, IW, beeline for MM.

-Arrian

	07-01-2003 19:19									#18
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If we don't break free through the isthmus, it's probably our only chance to keep halfway up in tech. Not that we'll able to trade when we finally met the other civ(s). We won't have anything to trade, I'm pretty sure, at least no tech. But as many contacts as possible will make our own research cheaper.

I have to propose a compromise: What about starting research with Alphabet, and during research to try to get at least BW from VC, say, for The Wheel. If this succeeds, we either try to trade Alphabet for IW (if they still need it, that is...) or research it ourselves at reduced cost. At least during Alphabet nothing bad can happen with us. And we won time for our diplomatic effort.

	07-01-2003 19:38									#19
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Sir Ralph, I proposed that a few days ago, and still like it. But the same arguments I heared then still apply: the wheel seems a very good pay for BW, too good to be true. And most likely, while BW will not be tradeable, the wheel is.

I agree on alphabet though, but if possible I would let them know we are going for it, and ask if they would be interested in trading it for IW. If Civ X is expansionist, they won't, and neither when Vox is reseaching it themselves (on route for literature).

Note that the GL is a very possible goal for Vox, if they would decide to remain isolationist. We were thinking on it ourselves because we thought to be isolated, but all we imagined for ourselves does now apply to Vox. (apart from the superb production, and relative ease of setting a wondercity apart).

Damn... another insight for the Vox's View thread... will be updated later on.

DeepO

	07-01-2003 19:42									#20
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Alphabet would sound a good option to research first, now when thinking about it more: Vox might just be willing to trade the BW to Wheel. Or has this been proposed to them yet ? Diplomats ?

	07-01-2003 19:46									#21
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No tech trade proposal yet, Conqueror. So far, the board thought that the wheel would be too expensive for BW. I proposed earlier to let Grog pass + BW in exchange for the wheel... if they go for that, I'd be pleased (hell, I'd give them the wheel in return for a possible contact to Civ X)

DeepO

	07-01-2003 19:48									#22
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Wheel plus something (like Grog passing) for BW is ok. A straight trade is a loss for us, because The Wheel is a more valueable tech.

-Arrian

	07-01-2003 19:55									#23
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Same here. I think we should propose this deal to them.

	07-01-2003 20:18									#24
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They will never accept to let Grog through. Not for the difference between Wheel (4) and BW (3). Maybe for the Wheel itself, but even this I doubt. You can try it but it's almost hopeless. We could try to see if they are interested, though. I can propose them The Wheel in the game, after the next turn is done, and wait to see what they'll offer in return. If they offer BW, we still might respond, well, it's a bit short... what about... etc., but at least they have shown to be interested in trade. Even if they disagree to let Grog through, we could say that they still owe us the difference. That means they'd have to pay it back and we might try to get IW (6) for Alphabet (5). A straight trade proposal Wheel/BW+passage would earn us a "No" and the negotiations would be over.

	07-01-2003 20:44									#25
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Have we heard anything on our previous PM yet?, we should wait and see what their answer is to that one, before sending a new deal.

	07-01-2003 20:51									#26
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PMs are slow and unreliable, at least when they are directed to BetaHound. I can propose it in the game through the diplo screen, and it will reach the players in time. They'd be forced either to decline it, or to propose their side of the deal.

	07-01-2003 21:25									#27
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Sir Ralph, that's a good idea, but please do it with an accompanying PM (to betahound, if we have to deal with him, otherwise to someone else). No need to get rude ourselves, but expressing that we aren't happy with their reluctance to be polite to us is something we need to do.

DeepO

	07-01-2003 23:22									#28
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What I would propose is a two-stage deal: First The Wheel for Bronze Working and then, once we get Alphabet, Alphabet for Iron Working. That would involve equal value in techs on both sides, and Vox could likely still come out ahead on the deal by trading one or both of the techs to our mysterious third party. (Of course that assumes they don't already have Alphabet or plans in the works to get it.)

Nathan

	07-01-2003 23:31									#29
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I still think that against immortals on flat terrain, cost for cost, WCs are better units than swordsmen. Individually, they're inferior, but the fact that most of the immortals that beat the first WC will still have to survive a second makes a huge difference. (Remember, somewhere close to half the immortals will lose to that first WC.) The one exception would be if the immortal army has significantly more shields' worth of units, but then the war is probably lost no matter which unit the defender has for his preemptive strike.

But I do see one aspect to our having Iron Working that would have to give Vox pause if they consider an attack. With Iron Working, every warrior we have becomes a potential swordsman, and that's in addition to the units we build from scratch.

	07-01-2003 23:32									#30
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So shall I send propose The Wheel in the diplo screen next turn, before they trade it with somebody else and we lose the opportunity? I think a decision is urgent.