08-12-2000 23:56									#1
	Vendettahood Suffering from ads?

So, I'm sure this has been gone over before, but it seems like there's a new bunch of Apolytoners around, and it's time to rehash old stuff, and I never really understood this...

Why can't you declare Vendetta on other factions? It's obviously a conscious decision by the designers to only allow other factions to declare Vendetta on you. It seems like they want to discourage the warmongering attitude by making every act of aggression a diplomatic violation. I don't like that.

And on a related note, if another faction probes you, it seems like you do get the option to declare Vendetta (if I remember correctly). If you do this, does it degrade your diplomatic status (ie noble, faithful, etc)?

	09-12-2000 00:19									#2
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You can, although not in MP I believe. IIRC if you right click on the faction in the commlink menu you have a "declare vendetta" option.

I don't know about the reputation effects of this, or anything really.

	09-12-2000 00:20									#3
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No it doesn't it. You are entitlted to declare vendetta for a probe action.

You can always declare vendetta just by attacking another faction's unit. You'll get a window that says "You have a truce with X. Do you wish to declare vendetta?" This will lower your reputation drastically, though. If a faction asks you to declare vendetta and you comply, this also lowers your reputation.

There are several strategies for provoking a vendetta without diplomatic penalty. Easiest is just to probe the faction. They are the ones to declrea vendetta, so it seems to be a form of "no-fault vendetta".

------------------
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	09-12-2000 01:17									#4
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DD, I have had my rep damaged by probe actions, but I agree that there are ways to get a vendetta going without a rep hit.

One of the quickest is to "demand withdrawl" whether or not the AI faction's units are in your territory. It seems to bug them. A few times of doing that and they will often become enraged enough to declare vendetta on you.

	09-12-2000 02:25									#5
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GV: As has been pointed out, this isn't true.

Y'alls: I know (or I think I know, at least) all the variable ways to get other factions to declare war on you, and the *one* way that you can declare war on someone else. My questions were these:

1) WHY? Why did they make it this way? It don't make no sense to me.

2) What are the ways to get into Vendetta *without* hurting your reputation?

	09-12-2000 03:10									#6
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HP: Did I imagine that menu option? Its possible that I did, I usually get into vendetta by attacking or by making unreasonable demands so I haven't tried it in a while, but I think I remember that option in SP.

Now that you have my curiosity piqued I will check when I get home.

	09-12-2000 04:06									#7
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For the "demand withdrawl" option and the "declare vendetta" option as well right click on the faction in the comm link section. Demanding withdrawl does not result in a rep hit, neither does making unreasonable demands on the diplomatic screen.

	09-12-2000 05:44									#8
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I've never had a problem getting vendetta declared on me by other factions, unless they are in the submissive mood. I actually start working on them a while before I want to go to war, get them seething, and then call them up and refuse any demands that they put to me. It's been quite effective for me.

	09-12-2000 17:27									#9
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HP, why SHOULD you expect to DECLARE Vendetta on another faction out of the blue, and NOT get your rep hit?

	10-12-2000 23:58									#10
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Ar, arrr, arr. Nobody understands my question, it seems. I never said you should be able to declare Vendetta without diplomatic repercussions. The fact is, you can't normally declare Vendetta anyway. I'm asking two separate things, which I will illustrate by leaving a big space in between them:

1) Why, do you think, the game designers decided not to let the player be able to declare Vendetta? I'm inviting speculation on what seems, to me, and odd design choice.

(big space)


2) Almost all the things you can *actively* do to go to war will hurt your integrity: agreeing to join another faction in Vendetta against a faction you currently have a Treaty or Pact with (not sure about Truce); outright attacking another faction; Probing tech from another faction; and any others I forgot. All I'm asking is, of since there's only *one* legal way I know of to actually declare Vendetta yourself--ie, after another faction probes you--does it, also affect your integrity? I'm astonished at the ways people have misinterpreted this question. Well, ''astonished'' is too strong; I'm amused, lets say. I never said I had any problem getting into Vendettas, or getting other factions to declare Vendetta on me. I never asked how to get into combat without it affecting your integrity. I'm asking if anyone *know* if a certain situation results in a loss of integrity. That's all. Does anybody *know*?

	11-12-2000 17:19									#12
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Okay, sorry for seemingly completely contradicting myself. I see how that's confusing. I was getting carried away with my "I never said"s. I just meant to reiterate that I never said you *ought* to be able to get into war without it hurting your integrity, which is apparently what MariOne thought I was asking. Although I guess the "WHY? Why did they make it this way?" section of my previous post may have been ambiguous: I was asking about the design decision to not allow the human player to declare Vendettas at will, not asking about the decision to make diplomatic repercussions for Vendettas. I can see how that may have been confusing, too.

In my completely unclear way, though, I was thinking different thoughts when I wrote these sentences:
"What are the ways to get into Vendetta *without* hurting your reputation?" and "I never asked how to get into combat without it affecting your integrity." Actually, in point of fact, they are not even literally contradictory statements. The first is a question about the diplomatic state of Vendetta; it seems like you are always penalized for entering Vendetta, and I wondered if there was a way not to be. The second is a statement about *combat*, which is linked to but not the same as Vendetta. I thought I was being accused of trying to find a dirty way to sneak attack someone without it harming my reputation. Which I'm not. So I said, "I never asked how to get into combat without it affecting your integrity." See? Clear as mud.

But having said that, the fact is I *would* like to know if there's a way to get into combat without it affecting your integrity. So I should never have said that. I was just nit-picking in my defense. Call me Clinton.

Anyway.

Um.

After all that, does anybody have an answer to my questions?

	11-12-2000 20:13									#13
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HP-

I understand what you are asking and here is what I think.

In the Civ series, it was almost too easy to get the AI to agree to a cease-fire and peace treaties. So you ended up with players positioning their forces, launching an attack, capturing the city, and then forcing the AI to call off hostilities before the AI can set up a counter-attack. Then the human player can regroup, set up for another attack on another city, take it and again get the AI to call off the war. Too easy.

In SMAC it is much harder to get the AI to call off a war, so that alieviates the above condition. If your perceived as a warmonger (bad rep) it becomes even harder. If you cannot start a war except engaging in nefarious actions, the kind of process that worked in Civ become completely unviable in SMAC. So, by not giving you a way to simply declare Vendetta outright, the designers probably sought to keep human players from taking advantage of the poor little AI factions.

Lastly, if you subscribe to the above logic, then you will see that the sorts of behavior where you can goad the AI into a war are probably in the realm of questionable activities. I won't say that they are cheats, but doing things like repeatedly demanding a withdrawal, for the sole purpose of getting the other guy to start the war, are actions that I would never take (except maybe against a real-life opponent). If you demand a withdrawl once, and the AI declares vendetta fine. But if you are just trying to get him to break the peace, then why not just start it yourself?

Sorry to break away from the topic at the end there, but I had to get that out.

-Kinjy

	11-12-2000 21:36									#14
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Let me see if I got it.

You know that there are other ways than attack to drive an AI faction to declare vendetta on you.

- if you're asking about why can they declare vendetta on you "out of the blue", there's not definite proof they're doing so, at least in my experience. Even when one calls me and says "I have enough of your lack of ethics, you madman", I assume that he's been *asked* by a 3rd faction to declare vendetta on me. Unless you saw that happen in a game with just you and that single AI.
That is, when an AI declares vendetta on you, you can assume that it's always a "reaction" to your activities, that you've been framed, or that it's a sneak attack (i.e. direct combat).

- Then, if you ask WHY you don't have the same opportunities to "react" to "offenses", well, I don't know, that might be a little flaw in the design, or it might have deen done intentionally as Kinjiru says.
That is, even if an AI asking for an outrageous tech trade or a tribute doesn't trigger his vendetta after your refusal, or they refuse your requests, and this pisses you off, the designer might have thought that your "state of mind" should be enough for a human player, no need to formalize it, you'll perform an actual evil action as soon as you'll have the occasion. Of course I know that this is not just the same for commerce with Treaty, for instance.

(NOTE that in some cases you DO have that option, as after an AI's definitive request of withdrawal, or after you get probed)
---
You know that there are other actions too which are NOT combat, and where YOU get asked whether you want to directly declare Vendetta, without waiting for the reaction of the enemy.
- founding a base inside the other's borders
- hostile terraforming (raising heights straight west of his territory, for instance)

- offhand I'm not sure if bribing a unit falls into that category. I guess that even if it's not untraceable, you have to wait for the victim's reaction.

---

I thought that accepting to declare vendetta after someone's request was the one which left your rep unspotted, but if you say that's not, then I don't know others (I never paid too much attention).

---

BESIDES, who cares about his reputation, when the only serious games are MP (PBEM or IP) with no AI factions present?

	11-12-2000 23:59									#15
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First off, thanks Kinjy and M-1 for answering. M-1: I'm assuming it's a design feature and not a bug, because it's one of the few things the AI can do that the human player can't. Kinj: good thoughts, those make some sense.

I'd forgotten about the request for troop withdrawal from the AI, and the opportunity to declare Vendetta that gives. I wonder if that causes a hit to your reputation; even though you're not doing it behind the back of your enemy, you are trespassing and then attacking, which could be considered shady behavior.

As to 'who cares': I'm actually still enjoying SP, finding new challenges, and currently considering playing for Dipolmatic Victory--but an actual one, not one that has to become a Conquest Victory. The last time I tried for this, it was maybe my second or third game ever, and I was still playing on Talent or something. It was so easy I never tried again. Now I'm thinking it might actually be pretty challenging, on a higher level.

	13-12-2000 03:28									#16
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No problem HP. Glad to be of service.

As to your supposition that a true diplomatic victory being tough to get at transcend, you are absolutely right. That is all I try for in SP anymore. (And I do still play SP alot on my flights every week!) I rarely manage to win this way.

One very intereting thing happens if you are using the SMAX variety and choose all non-warmongering factions. The Drones will seriously pull ahead in energy by late game, since Domai will start cranking out sats every turn or two. He has actually pulled of a couple of economic victories in the games where I am trying for true diplomacy!

	13-12-2000 10:45									#17
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I have been in situations where I've accepted tech and/or energy credits to call off a vendetts when I really wanted to continue hostile action. In most cases, I am pacted to another faction who is also at war with the faction I just accepted peace with. My next step is to contact my pactmate, who will undoubtedly ask me to assist them in their vendetta. Accepting their request allows me to keep my reputation and also has the side benefit of the tech and energy given in tribute the turn before. Many times I've accepted this tribute, knowing that I could be back at war the very next turn. This may be viewed as one of the "legal cheats". Mayby someone has an opinion on this.

As for The Drones, Orbital Defense Pods will soon knock his energy producers out of the sky. Domai has built these in SP games I've played, and I've found after a few turns of using the ODP's, he will quit building them.

	13-12-2000 12:17									#18
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Zonk, do you really got your rep. intact? I read a message in a thread (I am very accurate, yes), which stated the opposite in that very situation. Anyone who can fill in the blanks?

	13-12-2000 14:17									#19
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It is my understanding that if you accept urgings to go to Vendetta against a faction that you currently have a diplomatic agreement with, this will be seen by the global community as a violation of that agreement, and therefore will hurt your reputation. This is also indicated by the text of the option to agree to the Vendetta, which usually says something like, "Certainly! [faction x] will soon feel my knife in [his/her] back!" which indicates pretty clearly that you're doing something sneaky.

If Zonk's findings are accurate, my assumption is that this is a bug, and that the game somehow gets its wires crossed when you do the two things in the same turn (calling off a Vendetta against a faction and then agreeing to a Vendetta against the same faction).

However, I have noticed something else that I'm not quite sure about. It seems like sometimes the AI is just urging you to help them, not actually making you agree to join them in a Vendetta. In other words, sometimes agreeing to help them puts you in Vendetta with their enemy, sometimes not. But I'm not sure how you can tell this.