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orange
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It doesn't matter what your name is!
Feb 2000
time: 00:24
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ok, so we had one directed at Floyd and co., now one for Speer 
Your ideal fascist state exists, and they take away everything...drugs, foreign alcohol (domestic booze like budweiser and coors stay, you know, to eliminate monopolies) and girls aren't allowed to talk to or see boys until their 28th birthday. Slacks and polos are standard 'casual' dress for boys, and living in suburbs is outlawed.
All this exists, your dream world Speer, but one more thing. All rap music, which is seen as a cause of gang related and other violence is banned! Listening to rap music or making rap music is a capital offense. Do you want to live there?
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Lancer
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Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:24
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Damn, that's fascist? Where do I sign up?
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Jon Miller
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the problem with facsism is that it is easily abused
Jon Miller
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:24
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If a true fascism would exist now, it would be one the most evil governments, after a theocratic government. I would like to note that in a true fascism, corporations would be nationalized, one should remember that, when he reads the "government+corporations=fascism" quote.
Fascism, as I said, even the 20th century form of it, could be the moral, and the logical choice, under certain circumstances.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
If a true fascism would exist now, it would be one the most evil governments, after a theocratic government. I would like to note that in a true fascism, corporations would be nationalized, one should remember that, when he reads the "government+corporations=fascism" quote.
Fascism, as I said, even the 20th century form of it, could be the moral, and the logical choice, under certain circumstances. |
But there is no such things as "true fascism". The Italian thinkers did not finish making their theories, and the National Socialist were simply all over the place. After all, the Italians tried to push th notion of the corporate state, so even if Corporations were "nationalized", it seems to me that in the theoreticl sense, it would be a different from of state owneship than the Socialist model, once in which citizens would won shares in it as citizen, not individual private investors seperated from the public.
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:24
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hey, I am building on the ideas that exist. Fascism as a theoretical model of government, as a philosophy, is valid, and moral, since a situation can exist under which fascism would be NEEDED, and the right of the individual wouldn't matter, because, say, the fait of all of humanity would lie on the stake. Just like capitalism could be needed under certain circumstances. I am a communist because I believe that this is what would suit best the human race, under the current conditions of population number, the developement of technologies and applied sciences, and generally speaking the state of the world.
The idea of the Corporations belonging to the state is different than the socialist idea, due to the fact that the Nation/State exists almost outside the concept of the human individual. It also encompasses agression as one of it's "core values", violence almost for violence's sake, as a bonding factor, unlike even the violence in Marxist ideas, "the class struggle", and the world revolution.
I don't think that the Nazis should be treated as a fascists, btw. They were all racial supremacy. IIRC, Fascism doesn't speak about race at all.
This btw, shows another large difference between socialism ( to it's forms ), and fascism. Fascism didn't have the proper ideological fundement, at the time Mussolini came to power at the early 20s. So it created the situation that a "technological theory" (social engineering  ) was built to fit an existing situation. ( I make the distinction of 'technological theory" against "scientific theory", because a scientific theory represents an effort to explain a certain part of the world that we live in, and thus we must demand that the "scientific theory" would fit the existing situation, because otherwise, it's point is void. a "technological theory" brings a new concept to the world, that was previously unheard of, and tries to explain why and how will it work in accordance to the "scientific theories".)
Last edited by Az on 08-01-2003 at 01:16
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:24
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Azazel:
First: I think you meant Mussolini coming to power in the early 20's, not Franco.
Second: I agree that in theory, Fascism isn't racist since it does not speak of the "superiority" of one nation over another, nor deny in theory a multi-racial nation. In practice though, this is iffy, as it is all to common to state that your way must be better than "theirs" and race is to easy a way to differentiate "nations".
Third: The Nation state is fundamental to Fascism; Fascism is all about the Politics of culture. To fascist, Man is defined by his culture and nation, and thus, the political systems that must be built must be there to further refine the culture, and protect it; in Communism politics serves "class" interest, as economic class is the defining identity for man but in fascism Nation (and the culture that differentiates a nation from another) is the defining identity of man. The interesting bit is that what the relation of the creation of the state and creation of the culture is: does th culture have to exist a priori to the creation of the Nation (state) or does the nation come first, creating a safe environment for the creation and furthering of an individual culture?
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:24
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Even if Leviathan is one of the first works to provide a basis for an authoritarian government devorced from the Will of God, that still does not make it proto-fascist, anymore than the fact that Adam Smiths work is crucial to the development of capitalsm make him one of the fathers of Communism.
As for Fascism's relation to the individual: Fasicm isn't out to 'crush' indiduality, as they define it (which is always the key, definitions). To them, the only way that the 'true individual' develops is through the fascist state: to them, the idea that a human being can become whole alone, devoid of the culture if he whishes so, is foolish. Man can only wholly develop as an individual as part of the National Whole. Individual, yes, Alone, NO.
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07-01-2003 19:06
good points. I agree.
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