07-01-2003 19:23									#1
	Why a navy is sometimes very important... Get a bigger avatar today!

I normally play my games with all settings on random. When the game starts I won't know if it is a water heavy map or not until I explore for a while. If it is, a navy is an absolute must! After my last game which was on a water heavy map where I did not build a decent navy, I have learned a major lesson. That lesson was learned after getting the living hell beat out of me. If I would only have had enough ships the AI would have never been able to walk all over me and land troops all over my continent. After seeing over 50 AI ships & aircraft bombing my cities and improvements down to nothing, next time I will have the navy there.

So basically it all comes down to me losing mainly because of lacking in the naval department. I should have had at least 20 ships out there but I had a whole 4 destroyers to the AI's 40+ ships! I never even had fighters researched so at least if I had the navy I could have sank the AI's carriers which would have prevented their bombers from raping me at will.

At last, fail to build a sizeable navy on a map like this and you could find yourself facing defeat. Don't think because you are surrounded by ocean that you are safe. They will bombard the heck out of you and land on your shores until you are begging for peace...LOL

	07-01-2003 20:18									#2
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Thinking back to the map you originally posted from your game I would suspect that the AI's each being on their own continent is what drove them to build powerful navies - not something that happens on every map.

Having just won on a two continent map with nuisance raids by AI battleships I did note that the AI quickly withdraws damaged ships. My own navy was busy elsewhere covering my invasion forces but I was able to counter the AI battleships by moving stacks of artillery by rail to bombard their ships. I was further on in tech so could bombard them down to one HP with artillery and then finish them off with a cruise missile.

(Incidental question - do cruise missiles ever miss, I have never had one fail to do some damage. If they worked that well in real life then war with Iraq would be over already!).

I am just starting a monarch level game on an 80% water map so it will be interesting to see if I find myself in your situation.

	07-01-2003 21:38									#3
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Yes artillery does a good job at fighting off surface ships. I had to use cannons at first until I got the artillery researched. Now those carriers, that was another thing, they were too far out and I never had the tech so I could build fighters. When you are talking 3-4 carriers with full loads of bombers...that was problems for me. My rails were being destroyed down to nearly nothing from the carrier bombers. At least you had a navy out there I never even had one...LOL. Well I had one but if you want to call 3 or 4 ships a navy then ok. If you have an 80% water map on monarch I would definitely think you may see large navy battles. Yeah those AI's just fought very well on this map, large invasions and large navies. At last, I do think those cruise missiles miss but not very often and I am not sure.

Oh by the way, before wars even started out I had my attack on american all planned out to what I thought would be perfect. I had an evil feeling the whole while my loaded ships were travelling across the ocean to america. All the while I was being polite and peaceful to them and laughed as my ships were enroute. I feel like Japan and that I had awaken a sleeping giant Since my so called perfect attack failed badly and I got countered in the worst way. Just reminds me why they say don't mess with the USA

	07-01-2003 22:01									#4
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"Just reminds me why they say don't mess with the USA "

it's actually "dont mess with Texas"

	08-01-2003 00:20									#5
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Actually I've been doing to the AI what they did to you with carriers loaded with stealth bombers sitting just outside the range of the AI's bombers and reducing their cities to rubble. I rather enjoyed it! (I wonder if the AI has feelings)

It's not nice to be in a lose:lose situation though. Better luck next time.

	08-01-2003 01:41									#6
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I like big navies too, if only because I love to see the seas swarm with my ships. I especially love those nuclear subs hiding in enemy territory, attacking anything that moves.

I usually mod the game giving Destroyers an attack of 8 as to give them a disadvantage when attacking battleships. On the other hand, I give Nuke Subs an attack of 16, since in real life subs are devastating if they are allowed to get the first hit.

It would have been sweet if Aegis Cruisers could carry Cruise Missiles.

	08-01-2003 02:35									#7
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Actually I've been doing to the AI what they did to you with carriers loaded with stealth bombers sitting just outside the range of the AI's bombers and reducing their cities to rubble. I rather enjoyed it! (I wonder if the AI has feelings) It's not nice to be in a lose:lose situation though. Better luck next time.

Sometimes I wonder too, the AI certainly seems to get pissed sometimes...lol. I am definitely on a losing streak here but I will to do better next time. Seems in your game, the AI is better off then I was, at least it has bombers. Oh towards the very end I was able to sink an american carrier with my destroyer! I felt a little proud after that.

	08-01-2003 05:25									#8
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how come the AI detects subs when it's in the Middle Ages

	08-01-2003 15:24									#9
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In my experience cruise missiles miss more often than they hit... I'd love to see "tactical bombers" with the lethal sea bombard enabled.

	08-01-2003 15:58									#10
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I had a great game archipeligo game where naval combat became super important. I had switched on lethal bombardment of naval units and suddenly the carrier became an essential part of the navy. Sinking enemy carriers became the most important task for the navy. stealth fighters actually become useful here too because they have the recon range needed to locate enemy fleets so you can stay out of range till it's time to strike.

	08-01-2003 17:01									#11
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In original CIV, using bombers as a shield for carrier was fun. That way, you could transport 16 bombers with one carrier.

	08-01-2003 19:44									#12
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quote: Originally posted by bobbo008 how come the AI detects subs when it's in the Middle Ages

This caused me to pause in last game also, until I figured out the
invisible of subs only applys if at sea. If within 2 tiles of AI coast, not yours, then the AI will see and attadk subs.

Deep water and those swarms of ironclads ignore the puny sub. Even after sub attack they can't find them. Life is good.

== PF

	08-01-2003 20:23									#13
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quote: Originally posted by PrinceBimz Oh by the way, before wars even started out I had my attack on american all planned out to what I thought would be perfect. I had an evil feeling the whole while my loaded ships were travelling across the ocean to america. All the while I was being polite and peaceful to them and laughed as my ships were enroute. I feel like Japan and that I had awaken a sleeping giant Since my so called perfect attack failed badly and I got countered in the worst way. Just reminds me why they say don't mess with the USA

What were your attack details? America is only tough in air. Don't waste bombers on them, but normally they are not a match to a well planned attack. Do you have a minimap and details, or save game for us?

What did you know about :

 size/type of american forces

 

 number of american cities was _______

    land 

       best unit ________

       estimated numbers of best unit ______

    navy

       best unit ________

       estimated numbers of best unit ______   



 Your invasion force:

   navy

       best unit ________

       estimated numbers of best unit ______   

       number of transports _______

   land

       number of artillery _______

       best unit ________

       estimated numbers of best unit ______ 



Your invasion plan:

   Number of landing zones: _____

   Landing zones on hills/mountains:______

	08-01-2003 21:04									#14
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quote: Originally posted by planetfall [ ] you have jets to protect your carrier

Question: can jets perform air-superiority missions from carriers?

my previous experience is that they can't which means the carrier has to be within range of a city (or airstrip in case of PTW)

	08-01-2003 21:28									#15
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quote: Originally posted by TacticalGrace Question: can jets perform air-superiority missions from carriers? my previous experience is that they can't which means the carrier has to be within range of a city (or airstrip in case of PTW)

Yes && No.

NB air-superiority is ONLY defensive supermacy from incoming air attacks.

You get AS protection for your carrier and battle group. You do NOT get AS protection for bombing missions. Not even if your carrier is 1 tile from coastal city. CAn't recall if RFE for Firaxis or not, but in either case don't think this is something they will add quickly, if at all.

Thus recommendation to forget bombing runs on America as soon as they have the UU. Since it is the American UU, they usually have a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio of F15's to my planes. Add that to the added power and you have a lose, lose situation. The good news is AI builds F15 higher than bombers and F15 can't hurt land/sea units much. It is better to take a few land/sea losses than to lose a ton of air units to the F15's.


== PF

	08-01-2003 22:25									#16
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If the Americans get F15's they still only have a 50% chance on intercepting bombers. But they do usually build quite a few if they have the necessary strategic resources. If you can't cut off the resources then it is best to wait for stealth.

	08-01-2003 23:06									#17
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV If the Americans get F15's they still only have a 50% chance on intercepting bombers. But they do usually build quite a few if they have the necessary strategic resources. If you can't cut off the resources then it is best to wait for stealth.

F15 cost 100
B cost 100
Stealtn B cost 240

F15 @ 50% means 1 bomb raid free and next will be either reduced HP's or gone. Makes for a very expensive bombardment action: 100 shields/strike.

F15 @ 5% means 19 free stealth raids and
then either reduced HP's or unit gone. Still expensive: 240 shields for 19 strikes, or about 12 shields per strike.

Since strikes are somewhere between 1/3 to 1/2 chance of any effect, it makes this very expensive way to fight a war. Up to 150 shields for an effective bombing run.

BTW, I thought intercept probability was more like 35-40% instead of 50%. Or is F15 higher?

As you may have guessed, I used to use bombers a lot, but have reduced to using more navy and land forces because of the ongoing maintenance costs of having fun with air units.

-- PF

	08-01-2003 23:43									#18
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Hey planetfall, great checklist. Ive adopted it as my base invasion plan.....as compared to the shootfromthehip style I used before :-)

	09-01-2003 00:01									#19
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Romanus,

Thanks.

I don't use a physical checklist but it is the things I check
before I start an across the water invasion. It should help improve your success rates. I got tired of losing too many pieces in a foiled invasion.

Sometimes I will push before having 5 unit/turn capability, it all
depends on the game.

Other variations you can use,
1. instead of airports, can use galleons/transports if other land mass is within range of vessel. But usually other land mass is more than 7 tiles away.

2. If close enough, you can also skip carriers and air support.


In my games the other continent is usually 3-4 movement turns away so I need the entire list ready before warfare.


Oh, it does not seem to matter if you do

A. 2 landing zones in one turn, or
B. 2 landing zones within 3 turns.

But hostile landings usually work best if 2 target zones. If AI removes one, you still have a presence on foreign continent. In a couple of games the AI was so strong, I had to go to one landing zone and use all 5 transports to one zone instead of 3 to one and
2 to another.

== PF

	09-01-2003 00:11									#20
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I think your last tip was something I didnt do in the past and led to many a failed invasion. Newbie mistakes I guess. I would drop my invasion forces in basically the same spot.
Even though I hear some people say the game lacks real strategy/tactics in its war component, I disagree. Maybe it doesnt compare to the Total War RTS games, but it wasnt intended to. At least I enjoy it as is, although if you've ever played CTP2, it has a nifty combat popup screen/system.
Anyway, "I am Emperor Romanus of the Romans, not General Maximus......I plan the invasions and fund them, its up to my Legions to carry it out. Now, bring me females!"

	09-01-2003 00:19									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Romanus Now, bring me females!"

Sounds like Quark. A Roman emperor would want more.

== PF

	09-01-2003 08:01									#22
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planetfall...awesome tips there and I like the checklist! I am definitely going to give that some thought next time. Full details about my last game and a minimap is in these 3 threads...

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=73029

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=73144

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=73245

Check them out, it was an interesting game but turned to a complete disaster in the end.

	09-01-2003 20:01									#23
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quote: Originally posted by PrinceBimz planetfall...awesome tips there and I like the checklist! I am definitely going to give that some thought next time. Full details about my last game and a minimap is in these 3 threads... http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=73029 http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=73144 http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=73245 Check them out, it was an interesting game but turned to a complete disaster in the end.

Bimz,

Look at your own analysis:
China-- large navy, more advanced.
Babylon-- powerful, large and powerful navy
Amer--ton of techs, more advanced, fairly powerful navy.

Your basic problem is you let America goad you into a war you couldn't win. Look at resources:

Greece (you)-- 9 cities
Babylon-- 27 cities
China-- 21 cities
Amer-- 7 cities

Who are your biggest threats?
Babylon-- most powerful and staging city close to your continent
China-- 2nd most powerful with 2 staging continents so they can conduct an invasion from the south and the east.
America--smaller but long ways away, even with equality in techs and Magellan, it will take you 4-5 turns to move one ship from Greece to America. This is a long supply route, and easy to break.

What will AI do?

Babylon--
Won't take on China first but rather Greece or America. Let's see who is weaker in techs and closer in geography and will allow me to get closer to China?

China--
Won't take on Babyblon but either Greece or America.

America--
Needs land. China and Babylon won't give, therefore, Hello Greece.

What could have been a more productive strategy?

1. Ignore American goading. {For now, later raze all their cities as punishment, if you like}

2. Get MPP with Babylon if possible.

3. Build more cities. You have room for at least 8 minicities in your area of influence. You don't care they won't grow. You only want 2-4 tiles/mini city. Mini city produces only: library/barracks/military units {maybe temple/happiness improvement if needed. careful the mini cities are temporary cities and you will want to abandon them later for current primary cities}

4. Review what happened before 1973.
A. How did Babylon get to have a presense so close to you?
B. Are you trading luxuries with Babylon or China? big mistake. Ok for America but not the biggies.
C. How did china get the continent below you without any other civ there? You do not want any civ to have 2 entire continents.


5. Primary target should have been South China. Only 6 cities. If you attack from North, your supply route is only 1-2 turns. Babylon could attack from the West and America from the East.

6. Pick a civ to work on and do it.
1. First get close to tech parity, or at least get military to average strength.
2. Pick a civ to battle. I would choose China as they are closest to you and you have had trouble with them for a long time.
3. If can't get MPP with Babylon, you should be able to get MPP with America.
4. AFTER have MPP, goad China into attacking you. {You can use the methods used by america vs you.}

7. Once you have the South continent, make some good trades with China and then get
China/America and yourself to gang up on Babylon. You want to force WW on Babylon and make them revert to communism.

8. Ask for advise much earlier than 1973. Critical period is between 1500-1700. After that, it is just finishing the won game.

Hope you are doing better on your current game.

Good luck.

== PF

	09-01-2003 21:15									#24
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Bimz,

Further notes:

1. Don't need the check list for China as supply route is too short, only need for long supply chains, i.e., Babylon and America in your game.

2. Also before declare war vs America. Remember they can buy tech if needed for infantry. This late it is too risky to attempt an invansion with only cannon,rifleman, etc. Assume you will need at least: infantry/artillery. If others have carriers, you can assume America will have/soon have-- BS, carriers. infantry.

== PF

	10-01-2003 05:09									#25
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Babylon landed a settler and put a city there while I was fighting China. The continent that is to the south of me was once all part of Japan. China waged war with Japan and took it all over via invasion fleets. There is a very small 2 square island with a city just to the east of this continent, I owned it for a short while. Then China landed and took it over. I was going to use that island for a naval base to attack America. Plus it contained Japan's last city and I was at war with them very early on and conquered it putting Japan out of the game. Although I lost the game I had alot of fun I just started a new game, this one is a crowded one. Like 4 nations in an area near each other me being one of the four. Seems hard to gain ground in this new game here. I always play all settings on random so I don't know if its a water heavy map or not. I have to wait until I explore. Anyway I will definitely keep those tips in mind while I play this game. If its starts getting ugly on me I will post before it gets out of control...lol

	11-01-2003 00:05									#26
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just a quick note about an enemy AI with strong air defenses. You don't have to completely forget about using bombers. Bombers are very powerful to have and IMO should always be there to attack the enemy.

The way to reduce the enemy fighter presence is to send your own fighters on bombing runs. This draws out the enemy fighters. Since your sending out fighter to bomb first, this weakens and often destroys enemy units. So then when you followup on your bombers, you'll suffer less losses. a 4HP bomber being intercepted by a Jet with 1HP is real good odds.

This worked really good in a pacific war scenario I made several months ago, where most of the game depends on naval and air strenght. So after getting the intial naval forces ready (bombers/jets/ships), I would then keep a few cities dedicated to fighters/jets building (1 or 2 turns for a new unit, pretty fast for replacements) and a lesser amount of cities to build bombers.

	11-01-2003 07:08									#27
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I totally agree about that. Sending fighters on bombing runs is a good idea. Alot of times I have my carriers loaded with fighters only. Many of times it is not even jets, just basic prop fighters. I do this for many reasons, one for bombing as you mentioned, the other for recon, then for air superiority. I like fighters for their abilty to fly many types of missions. A Pacific War scenario? I would like to play that, maybe you can post it up?