07-01-2003 20:01									#1
	Searching for OCC strategies Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

At the moment, I'm on the OCC trip. Im looking for OCC strategies. I've read Paul's OCC guide.
I'm not much experienced in Playing OCC, although I've managed the AC landing several times.
But not every time.

I've some tips for other OCC newbies (and, maybe some hardcore OCC gamers).
When collecting the caravans and freights for the SS element, I surround my city with a wall of caravans (so that no diplo/spy can intrude) - this is the inner ring (if possible).
The outer ring will be a ring aof airbases (you know why? You can attack airplanes before they attack you!).

The pattern looks like that:
a a a a a a a = airbase
a c c c c c a c = caravan
a c - - - c a x = city
a c - x - c a
a c - - - c a
a c c c c c a

If there's an isthmus (where the land is only one field wide), I block it with two NONE-units (they can't be bribed)
In one of my last OCC games I blocked three isthmi (latin plural), so the AI civs (which were my allies!) couldn't expand (they had room for only 4-5 cities) and they couldn't contact each other (they couldn't trade techs!) and they couldn't fight each other. So about 20% of the land was mine (I play OCC on a medium map, deity, raging h.,)

Question to the experts : Was that a wise strategy ?
Or shouldn't I have blocked them?

	07-01-2003 21:25									#2
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quote: Originally posted by ramses II. I've read Paul's OCC guide.

Good. So you know that he doesn't recommend building KRC

City security is hard to determine without seeing the terrain, but I would not be keen on leaving freights open to attack from ground troops.

Sure use your choke points to good advantage but the Isthmus rich map you mention will not come around too often!

I'm not sure about any gain from stopping the AI exchanging techs.

--------------------------

SG(2)

	08-01-2003 02:23									#3
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the only gain i can see if they can't contact each other is that they wont declare an alliance to get rid of you...block isthmus's is a good idea in preventing encroaching....

i have never had more than one isthmus in an occ game...i wonder if that is b/c i use small maps when i played.

	08-01-2003 02:34									#4
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I thought one of the principles of paulicy was nurturing the AI's to develop some techs for you. (up to a point). If you keep them seperated, it will have a serious negative impact on their ability to contribute techs to you.

I thought airbases in the city limits were not allowed for record runs.

	08-01-2003 03:09									#5
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Keeping the AI separated is not a bad idea if you can do this without using too many resources. When they trade techs among themselves, this slows down their research speeds considerably because of increased tech carrying costs. It becomes much less likely they will have time to learn something new that you can trade for and use.

In OCC, defense does not seem to be a problem until after your spaceship is launched. Selective tech gifts almost always keep the AI happy at other times. It's not a bad idea to give them techs like Republic or Democracy, with the hope they will make the switch to these peaceful governments and research faster.

	08-01-2003 03:24									#6
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quote: Originally posted by solo When they trade techs among themselves, this slows down their research speeds considerably because of increased tech carrying costs. It becomes much less likely they will have time to learn something new that you can trade for and use.

All depends how you look at it. Quite often a civ will trade for the tech they're working on, and those beakers will be put towards developing a new one. I've seen the AI leapfrog quite well a few times.

RAH

	08-01-2003 03:34									#7
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quote: Originally posted by rah I thought one of the principles of paulicy was nurturing the AI's to develop some techs for you. (up to a point). If you keep them seperated, it will have a serious negative impact on their ability to contribute techs to you.

You want to control the tech exchange yourself, rather than let them do it, so you "nurture" the AIs with selective tech gifts to get them to research something you dont have. Letting them exchange techs adds to their tech costs, redirects them away from the techs you want them to work on, and loses for you the "attitude benefit" of your being the one to give things. Keep them separate if possible early on. Later the naval exchanges are impossible to block.

Ramses, your caravan/freight formations seem overly complicated, and your OCC city is often on the ocean where you should not be using valuable ships to block. Another thread on this forum discovered the "Wonder Bread" trick, wherein you can free up a wildcard commodity for trade by delivering a single food caravan to a wonder, then switching back to caravan production to get the commodity. I've used that several times, but you have to do some math to check on your Supply/Demand Quotients for commodities. Check this thread:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=67945

Here's my "expanded" OCC/MC Tech Plan, with deviations and bypasses noted:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...&threadid=35219

	08-01-2003 03:45									#8
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quote: Originally posted by rah I thought airbases in the city limits were not allowed for record runs.

Yeah ... that's what I recall as the airbase offers another unit of food. Although I'm not too clear if the airbases in ramses' plan are within the city limits.

Certainly it generally pays to let the AI research for you.

Say Civ A is researching something useless in an OCC game like Polytheism. Civ A gains the advance but can't swap. If Civ B is attempting Polytheism also there is no gain.

However, if Civ A can exchange Polytheism with B (who has a beaker box 90% full) B can change research and target a tech you need ... which could come in next turn.

Such is the beauty of the game.

---------------------

SG(2)

	08-01-2003 06:17									#9
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Yes, rah, that's a good point. Sometimes a tech gift matching what an AI is learning will save those accumulated beakers and apply them towards another advance, and in longer OCC games when I have an embassy or Marco Polo's, I will gift techs to an AI until they start learning something new, to avoid redundancy.

However, what if you do not have an embassy (likely in most OCC games). An AI is just as likely to be in process of learning something you want to know, and then will just delayed in doing so by exchanging other techs with another AI. When they trade amongst themselves, they tend to share any and all techs. The delay in research speed created by this is enough that by the time they have finally learned the tech you need, you have already had to do the job of learning it yourself.

Also, in shorter games, which most OCC games tend to be, it does not take many tech gifts to render further discoveries by the recipient unlikely for the duration of the game, so it doesn't matter what the new thing is they are trying to learn. Your odds of getting fresh and useful techs from an AI are greater, if their trading opportunities have been limited, or controlled by your own limited gifts.

	08-01-2003 09:18									#10
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The airbases are not in the city limits. They are on the fields mext to them.
I block the isthmi with some NONE units I found.

	08-01-2003 18:36									#11
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A few comments forom different OCC experience.
First I play ToT, and there, the AI will attack you before you launch a ship. If they are near enough, they will. I tried playing nice OCC on a small map, and that always proved suicidal. The AI would ask 1 tech gift per turn not to attack. That doesn't last forever.
So to me, using airbases as decoys is very interesting. I think most of the time you have sea access so that makes airbases less useful, however. Also airbases don't give any extras in ToT so they could be built anywhere.
I often used fortified camels to prevent spies or other units form moving in, but in such a case I usually have a fortified unit somewhere so that it will withstand the attack should one arise.

I tend to build Marco Polo's Embassy in most OCC games. I tend to build it before Colossus if I can, as it pays more IMO. Exchanging maps and techs with the rest of the world allows early camel routes, so I disagree with the most OCC don't have an embassy part. For me, that is wrong. I most often have embassies (and hate the civ that discovers communism).

Elephant:
I think Leo is mostly useless in OCC. To me auto is much more worthwhile than tactics because it provides more trade whereas tactics provides just units. I usually leave feudalism and chivalry out of the path for as long as I can.

	08-01-2003 22:57									#12
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quote: Good. So you know that he doesn't recommend building KRC

uh? Why not?

Sorry, I'm new at OCC

	08-01-2003 23:16									#13
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@Alice
Read Paul's Guide and the Great Library here and other threads.
In OCC games you must forget all what you've learned about civ strategies ...just do the contrary, and you're right.

	08-01-2003 23:44									#14
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Thanks Ramses
I thought I had read Paul's guide, I don't remember anything about KRC, I'll read it again and pay attention this time

	09-01-2003 00:01									#15
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Disclaimer: Paul's guide is the difinitive guide IF YOU WANT TO BE CLOSE TO A RECORD.

If you just want to succeed and don't care how long it takes, there are many ways to do it, including using your exisiting CIV knowledge base.

When we first started to attempt it, Paul's guide wasn't created yet. I did hold the record for a couple of days

I thought LEO"s was still critical because it upgraded all those early non units that you bribed or got from huts. I spent a considerable amount of time building up a quite formidable army of non-units and naval units that make the end game a heck of a lot easier. I was able to keep competing CIVs literally close to the stone age by keeping the pressure on them all the way through. Their last minute offensive after launch would never happen because they were still reeling from my previous adventures. I never traded techs with them, just extorted money, dropping out of democracy every 8 turns for a single turn just to empty their treasuries. It can easily be done. But you can't do it much faster than the mid 1900's. I built a lot of needless wonders and researched techs not needed. Heck, I built a few wonders just to keep the AI from building them.
But it can still be won. It just won't be a record. Looking back, I laugh at the overkill.

SO it depends on what your goals are for the game. I guarentee you warmongers will have loads more fun trying it not going for a record. But if you're trying for a record, READ the BIBLE as written by Pual

RAH

	09-01-2003 03:35									#16
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare Elephant: I think Leo is mostly useless in OCC. To me auto is much more worthwhile than tactics because it provides more trade whereas tactics provides just units. I usually leave feudalism and chivalry out of the path for as long as I can.

I've been trying it out both ways and I can see your point. I was writing a redraft of my Tech Plan to add an option for Early Auto. I really like the upgrades of ships, dips, and caravans, but the cost/benefit is probably not there. The other civs often go for the more military techs anyway, so you'll get them in trade. I'm a big fan of Marco Polo, for techs, maps, and attitude adjustments. Ship a Dip along with a caravan to establish an embassy and you don't have to worry about Communism. And you can buy some NONEs along the way...

	12-01-2003 03:49									#17
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It might be a good strategy to delay the launch of his spaceship if you 've got fusion power and wait until the other civs have started their spaceships. They will do that as soon as possible.

If you start first, the other civs will build SS components until they can overtake you - perhaps they invent fusion power.

Maybe you should give them the last needed techs (e.g for the modules) to force them to launch their ships with the minimum numbers of components ...

Dear OCC experts - what do you think oft that strategy?

I'm no expert in OCC, but meanwhile I win 2 of 3 games.

	12-01-2003 04:53									#18
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are there still all those OCC game saves, ie like the 4 whale one, i tried to play some occ today and believe me, i had to restart so many times just looking for a good spot to build

	12-01-2003 05:28									#19
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I never want my opponents building spaceships in OCC games, building only one piece a turn when they can build 10+ is never a good idea.

	12-01-2003 05:31									#20
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i have to admit, when i OCC, i am not nearly as good as Paul or any of the other geniuses....but its not hard to win....like rah said, i tend not to give much away, and tend to be quite hostile in my large single city empire

	12-01-2003 05:33									#21
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Me too. But I usually get so much fun out of kicking butt, that I ignore all the tradional strats and just listen to the little boy in me. Hence, I win, but never come anywhere close to the records.

	12-01-2003 05:34									#22
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i have a hard time playing peacefully....i like to crush things, so finding that city i can bribe units from early on, and building leos , hehe, allows me to fullfill part of my habits, while eventually winning the damm game

	12-01-2003 05:56									#23
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Yes, so do I. My MP experience has made me a bit to blood thirsty.

	12-01-2003 09:21									#24
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there is not much compassion in MP games is there? I never was one of those who had much compassion for the ai either....no wonder i chose my nickname(s)

	13-01-2003 08:51									#25
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quote: Originally posted by War4ever are there still all those OCC game saves, ie like the 4 whale one, i tried to play some occ today and believe me, i had to restart so many times just looking for a good spot to build

just thought i'd point it out for those interested
currently, there are links to 5 comparison game saves (including the 4 whales) and 25 OOC fortnight saves off of Paul's OOC strategy guide (see great library index for link).

	19-01-2003 15:54									#26
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Just out of curiosity, how many turns do you spend exploring for a good site? What's the latest you would recommend for founding your first city?
Sorry if this has been already discussed.

	19-01-2003 19:41									#27
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there was a thread a couple of years ago where waiting several milinia and still winning games, not sure exactly where that thread is atm. A good responce would be 'as long as it takes' since the more techs the AI has, the quicker you can research, and the goal in OCC is to ally and let the AI help you to the best of your ability. Also keep in mind, in OCC once you found your city, you have to use your settlers/engineers to change the terrain to make the site better. That takes time as well, and if you find a site with several trade specials, you can often do the work without slowing city growth and output. That alone is worth several extra turns of exploration. There was one OCC fortnight game where the designer tried to damage our reputation by having us sneak attack and destroy 4 civilizations so we could found our city. I think a couple people in that senario packed up and left, exploring till possibly the 1800's BC and still managed similar landing times. Would have to search the archived threads to verify that as well...

	19-01-2003 22:50									#28
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wow, i don't wander much longer than one 1k years..after that i restart and look for another site

	19-01-2003 23:41									#29
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OCC fortnight #13 was the OCC game i was trying to think of and my memory is a little faulty. I founded my city in 2950 and managed an 1869 landing. I remember thinking if i had wandered a little more i could have found better terrain... SG(1) founded his city in 3350 and did an 1853 landing.

edit: fix link

	20-01-2003 08:37									#30
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well, I don't like restarting the game (although I do it from time to time ), I usually rush the founding of my first city only to find a better spot just a few squares away . So, I'll follow your advice I guess, and spend dome more time exploring