07-01-2003 20:33									#1
	Internet GW - a cultural gamebreaker? Increase Your PM Length

This thread is prompted by my last game where I was going for a domination victory and was presented with a cultural win.

To cut a long story short there were two continents, me and 4 AI's on one and 3 AI's on the other. I conquered all my continent and built the Internet GW. I had then just started to invade the other continent when the game ended.

Obviously I had about 50-60 cities compared to the AI's total of 30 something but half my cities had newly rushed temples and some libraries but no other culture generating improvements. The AI cities were all long established (>1000 years) and they had not been at war with each other.

Suddenly on building the Internet all my cities, even those without universities (the usual requirement for a research lab) had research labs generating two culture per turn. A newly captured city expanded its border before I had a chance to rush a temple in it! My culture total took off and game over!

I think research labs should generate some culture because of the use of modern technology in music, art and so on but this seems to be too strong. I am considering editing research labs down to one culture per turn.

Anyone else experienced this or have any thoughts?

	07-01-2003 20:49									#2
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Hmm, didn't knew you got the culture for those labs when using the internet wonder.

Sounds like a bug to me.

Great for war though.

	07-01-2003 22:30									#3
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I think it can be overpowering.

I'm a hybrid builder/warmonger, which means my style of play usually amounts to some initial empire building, then an archer or swordsman rush to conquer a few neighbors, then another era of building, rinse, and repeat.

Because of this, I prefer to leave the cultural victory condition turned off anyway. I'd much rather conquer the world by force or possibly via spaceship victory. To me, the sudden (and often unexpected) cultural victory is kind of anti-climactic.

With this in mind, I have to agree with alva - the Internet wonder is very handy when you're on the warpath and want your newly conquered cities to be more productive in a hurry.

	08-01-2003 01:12									#4
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shouldnt the internet be a minor wonder that all civs can build

	08-01-2003 02:22									#5
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quote: Originally posted by brianshapiro shouldnt the internet be a minor wonder that all civs can build

Well, that's an interesting point.

On the one hand, historically speaking, there was only one "Internet" ever built; the U.S. Government established it along with the military and several academic institutions. However, the benefits of the Internet are supplemented and enjoyed by nations all over the world these days.

I'm not sure how to balance the wonder in order to make it more realistic. I think the first Civ to build it should definately enjoy the biggest rewards - but maybe there could be a small wonder equivalent that other civs could build afterwards...

	08-01-2003 04:15									#6
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its great for when your taking over other civ's via the military option.

	08-01-2003 04:30									#7
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Well, if it really bothers you, then I think you should just disable that victory type.

	08-01-2003 05:51									#8
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It's not overpowering at all. By that point of the game, all my cities are producing 15-20 culture anyway, and an additional 2 points per turn that can never double don't make much difference.

	08-01-2003 06:25									#9
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Not at home, but in newly conquered territory, it can make a big difference. Maybe it's not a game-breaker or anything, but I sure like having it.

	08-01-2003 06:40									#10
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Lets do some math. You need 100,000 culture points to win a cultural victory, plus you must have at least twice the culture points of any other civ. Let's assume you have 50 cities. This means that you would need 1000 turns to win from just the culture points coming from the Internet to win. Note that it won't help off your home continent at all.

	08-01-2003 08:48									#11
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True Warp, but all the other modern GW give what, 4 or 5 extra culture points....

This one (in your example) gives you a 100 extra culture points per turn..

	08-01-2003 16:42									#12
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Yes, it would. But unless you were within a few thousand points of victory it won't be enough on its own to put you over the top in any reasonable time. You pretty much need to be on the road to a cultural victory anyway.

BTW, I don't get that many free Research Labs out of it as I usually buy them in my productive cities right away. The fact that I don't need to pay upkeep is great though.

	08-01-2003 17:20									#13
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm BTW, I don't get that many free Research Labs out of it as I usually buy them in my productive cities right away. The fact that I don't need to pay upkeep is great though.

And you can sell the labs you have built for a few extra gold pennies.

	09-01-2003 18:18									#14
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I'm a chemist and I work in a research lab now and I have worked at a few others in the past. Believe me, they don't produce any culture at all--unless you consider traffic congestion, urban sprawl and yuppie arrogance to be culture generating. If anything, they should generate extra trade but zero (or negative) culture.

	09-01-2003 19:01									#15
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quote: Originally posted by SuperSlinky I'm a chemist and I work in a research lab now and I have worked at a few others in the past. Believe me, they don't produce any culture at all--unless you consider traffic congestion, urban sprawl and yuppie arrogance to be culture generating. If anything, they should generate extra trade but zero (or negative) culture.

You're definitively right...

	10-01-2003 05:32									#16
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I don't understand why the effects are only for cities on the same continent. Surely the whole point of the Internet is to allow people from all over the world communicate with each other--so surely the player should get research labs in ALL of his cities.

In fact, it should probably put a research lab in every single city on the entire map, all civs included! Globalization etc. So I think overall that the Internet is a bit of a let-down, something Firaxis chucked in for the sake of it. Quite disappointing really.

	10-01-2003 06:23									#17
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Well, it would take less than a minute to change it in the editor to allow it in all your cities. There is no way to give it to everyone though. Although if there was, who would build it?

As far as the point of it goes, it was not built to allow global communication. It was built to allow the US military and academia to communicate. It took about 2 decades before industry and civilians in the USA really started to use it. It took about another decade before it went 'global'. There are still many parts of the world where the service isn't really there. In fact, less than 10% of people currently have internet access.

	10-01-2003 10:44									#18
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strange that Firaxis would put the Internet in the game, as it has the exact effect of the old SETI wonder in Civ1, plus the current culture effects.
In the notes for Civ2, Sid claims to have weakened SETI because it was too much of a gamebreaker, a case of "the rich getting richer".
OK, if that was true, why bring it back now?

	10-01-2003 10:56									#19
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I dont know how powerfull the Seti in Civ1 was...but I wouldn't consider the Internet overpowered: Pyramids give you one Granary in every city...you can double your growth from the ancient era till the modern Age: that's a powerfull wonder! The Internet just gives you research labs that you could build in 4-5 turns anyway... And the cultural effect isn't that important...100 culture points per turn aren't that much wehn you need 100.000 to win.

	10-01-2003 15:18									#20
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I did actually edit the Internet to give a research lab in every city although this wasn't a factor in my game as all but two of my cities were on a single continent.

I suppose my real concerns are about two points. The main one is that this wonder not only effectively doubles your civs research but also does significantly boost culture. 80-100 points per turn is like suddenly having an extra 4 or 5 large cities with all the cultural improvements in place. I can't think of another GW that significantly affects two aspects of the game like this.

The minor point is that you get the research labs even in cities that don't have a library or university.

I just feel it can be a bit too powerful on some maps and will be trying to edit it down a bit.

	10-01-2003 20:08									#21
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Sounds like your problem is you generate too much culture for the culture win. Strange that there is not an editor setting to change the culture value needed to trigger a culture win.

Besides turning off culture win, {my solution}, you could reduce/eliminate the culture generated by labs.

Re lab rat{superslinky}. labs do not generate culture but they generate the appearance of culture. Remember culture here is not "artistic taste and refinement" but solely "products of human work or thought created by a people at a particular time." Civ influence, i.e. "culture" in civ3 is not the same as culture in the real world. A better label might be civ political influence, but Firaxis voted for a one word label.

== PF

	10-01-2003 23:05									#22
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm As far as the point of it goes, it was not built to allow global communication. It was built to allow the US military and academia to communicate. It took about 2 decades before industry and civilians in the USA really started to use it. It took about another decade before it went 'global'. There are still many parts of the world where the service isn't really there. In fact, less than 10% of people currently have internet access.

Well, what if there are military and academic institutions on two different continents...! I still think it should be for all cities, but unfortunately I don't play around with rules in the editor. Apparently, it can cause "unpredictable results" and so I stay well away from it.

Although I have no problem with the culture element. America is the de facto cultural ruler of the world, as we all know! And how could this have happened but for globalization, the international media and its latest accomplice, the Internet? I challenge anyone to prove me wrong....

	11-01-2003 01:28									#23
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quote: On the one hand, historically speaking, there was only one "Internet" ever built; the U.S. Government established it along with the military and several academic institutions.

It was first build in Europe for the scientists there I believe. I think it was CERN.

	11-01-2003 02:45									#24
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Marcus, I think that you are thinking of the Web, not the Internet. That was built by CERN in the early '90s.

ARPANet (which eventually grew into the Internet) was developed as a US defense research project in 1966.

A short history of the Internet can be found here

	11-01-2003 02:46									#25
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I was just going to post the same link!!