11-12-2000 05:41									#1
	Armor on helicopters Support Apolyton

Does armor on helicopters, ground attack and air superority helicopters, help in attacking or defending against ground units or air units? To those who answer, thanks.

	11-12-2000 09:01									#2
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Sem

The only case I can really think of where it would be helpfull to armor your choppers would be if you are using them to defend bases you already own or have just taken over. Otherwise your choppers should always be using their weapon. For example, if you attack a base with said chopper that houses an interceptor in it the interceptor would scramble to defend, but will defend with its attack rating and your chopper would reamin on the offense using its weapon.

It is rare that I encounter situations where I need armor on my jets or choppers and consider it a waste of minerals.

	12-12-2000 10:39									#3
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Good question sem.
WE, you should know that choppers are 'peculiar' air units.
One of their peculiarities, is that ANY unit can attack them (the others being their special refueling, and their multiple attacks)
YES, copters can be attacked by land units and by sea units. After all, at the end of their turn they "land" (I presume they can float!), that's why they take damage, so they're NOT "in the air" during other's turns.

Details:
- a land unit can't attack a copter on a seatile
- a ship can attack copters regardless where they station

- both a land and a sea unit will attack a copter with a conventional attack, till death. This means that even a ship will be able to take down an adjacent copter with one attack
- the copter defense will be calculated from its ARMOR
- a ship can also attack a copter with Long Range Fire, as if it were any other unit

- EVEN if the copter has Air Superiority, this has no effect if attacked from a land or sea unit
- EVEN if a land or sea unit has SAM attack (=air superiority), this will have NO effect on the attack odds when attacking a chopper
- EVEN if BOTH the above apply, there will be no effect: the chopper will NOT defend with its weapon, but with its armor, reagrdless of the abilities
- alas, a copter CAN'T have AAA ability, as after all it's an air unit, albeit peculiar!

AIR to Chopper
Coherently with the above, a Chopper can be always be attacked by a needlejet, regardless if this has AirSuperiority or not
- if a chopper has NOT Air Superiority, it will always defend with its *armor* against a needlejet, regardless of this one SAM abilities
- if a chopper has AirSuperiority, it will always defend with its *weapon* against a needlejet, regardless of this one SAM abilities

the same applies for Chopper vs. Chopper

---

So, if you plan to keep your choppers on open ground after their attack, that is they won't be able to safely land in a (air)base, remember that they're VULNERABLE.
After the damage reported in combat, and the 30% for rough landing, they'll also be exposed to attack by ANY unit.
If you can at least bring them above the sea, this will already eliminate the attacks from land units.
But, either you're able to bring them back in the same turn (limiting their number of attacks, considering their reduced range), or you use them like kamikaze (considering yourself lucky if they don't fall to counterattack), or you should seriously consider armoring them if you plan to send them into the thick of enemy fields and hope to bring them back the next turn.
Further considerations.
Knowing that after a raid they'll be very likely damaged, you might decide that even if armored, they will have little chance to survive anyway.
Knowing that adding BOTH weapons and armor to a chopper makes it RATHER expensive, you can thus decide whether the investment for an armor is worth of it.
Do it by comparing:
- the costs of cheaper expendable kamikaze chopper,
- the costs of armored choppers AND the actual probability to effectively increase their survival rate in the kind of missions you'll use them for.

I never found a definitive answer for that question.
I always reserve a slot for an armored chopper design, but I can't recall that I used one, or that it would have actually been preferable.

	12-12-2000 02:10									#4
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MariOne,

While it is true that choppers can be attacked while on the ground, it is also true that the AI doesn't do it. So unless you are playing a human opponent there is no need to worry about this. Even against a human I doubt that it would be worthwhile to armor your chopper because armoring air units is so expensive. Better to let your chopper try to wipe out anything that could counterattack, and failing this, self-destruct next to as many enemy units as possible.

	12-12-2000 02:19									#5
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The whole chopper landing thing still has me puzzled. I know I could fire up the editor but have yet to do so to test this out but....

Since chopper land are they susceptible to subversion whilst landed?

I've heard it both ways.

Does anyone know definitively?

If not I'll have to actually do some work and test it out on the scenario editor. Shudderrr....

Og

	12-12-2000 02:42									#6
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I'm fairly certain they can be subverted on the ground, although I'm not sure about in an airbase.

I remember back in the dark days before v4 I regularly used to put armour on air units - it was free, and they looked fantastic - anyone who has seen the splendour of a 6-3-10 Needlejet will know what I mean . But now, they just aren't worth it - an enemy unit can attack and destroy a chopper on the ground whether they have armour or not; I just don't think it's worth putting it on for the astronomical cost....

	12-12-2000 02:54									#7
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MariOne, great information. Some additional comments. When you get the tech for a higher reactor, you can add armor at no extra cost. With a singularity reactor, for example, the red armor is free, and silksteel only costs a little bit. I like to build Singularity / Graviton/ Blink / Silksteel choppers. They look cool, and arent too expensive. 140 or something like that. You can build a basic graviton gun /plasma armor/ singularity copter for under 100.
A fully equipped base can turn out one per turn.

I have no idea whether the armor helps much, but for free? Why not add it. Actually the blink (ignores base defenses) is the best protection for the copter, since it leaves it stronger at the end of its turn.

	14-12-2000 01:46									#8
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Sikander: ah, the AI.... sorry, I never take it into account...

Reactors:
well, I have very little experience of higher ractor units.
I won a pbem by transcendence, only built a few *3 units and didn't use them (I let my Pactmate the Hive play with weapons for me )
I make extensive use of Fusion reactor tho, and for sure there are lots of units which can benefit of additional armor for free, many players overlook that.
Like formers, crawlers...
And if you design your Plasma AAA *2 garrison, you find out that you can also add a missile weapon for free!
I can't recall about choppers with that reactor tho

OO, m13
Just tested it in a scenario.
both in- and out-side airbase.
The game's answer is (both onscreen and in MFD):
Only probe teams with the "Air Superiority" ability can subvert air units
(so here choppers are considered AIR units...)
DO'H, but you can't add THAT ability to a probe-equipped unit!!!
Same idiocy for "Amphibious" & "sea units".

	14-12-2000 02:40									#9
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Damn, well that shows you what happens when you can't be bothered to check something That probe team thing, BTW, is farcical - I think there may be a way to change this in the alphax.txt file, although I am not sure. Never really bothered with it before, I just thought that as you can alter it to put abilities on missiles, you may be able to do the same with probe teams....