08-01-2003 03:06									#1
	What is more important than the Nation? Get a bigger avatar today!

This is an unfinished theme that I have been exploring recently. Any thoughts or criticisms are welcome as I would like to pursue this idea further. Please remember this is in the raw.

What is more important than the Nation?

Why is the Nation more important than the individual? What is greater than Nation? Is the sanctity of the Nation supreme?

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. When is this not true? The individual is of prime importance. Would you like to be the symbolic sacrifice for the survivors?

Our myths are dominated by the heroic individual. He is heroic for two reasons, because he is born to win or he is born to die. There can be no middle ground for the hero. The Nation is supreme, but the mythical hero sustains its counterfeit soul. I say counterfeit, because the Nation squashes its individuals. It is precisely because of this reason that it is impossible to have heroes in a Nation. A Nation by definition has no individuals. It is a colony beast. It is a multi-celluar creature in which the individual cells have gained consciousness.

	08-01-2003 03:18									#3
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@Jakko!

I would say the individual is more important than the state, but the state is also important. I feel that states can organize individuals into a more efficient and more harmonious union, and that a greater good can come from effectively organized nations working domestically and abroad to better the lives of everyone.

	08-01-2003 03:30									#4
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In its current state, the Nation generates a certain number of elite individuals who act on the behalf or for the entertainment of the masses or the hoarde depending on your view. These individuals are more equal than others, to steal a line from Orwell.

	08-01-2003 03:44									#5
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only read the title but
oh pretty much all that truely matter in this life are worth more than the "nation"

	08-01-2003 03:47									#6
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I am one of those people who couldn't care less about "the Nation". I'd consider myself European but that's about it, in football I'll support Holland and that's as far as it goes.

I am more important to myself than any nation, the people I care about are more important than any nation. And Jaakko has a point, this does have a tinge of fascist rhetoric about it.

	08-01-2003 03:50									#7
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The species. Duh.

	08-01-2003 03:51									#8
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God and family, for me.

I want to start a thread about heroes though, because I've had a revelation.

	08-01-2003 04:00									#9
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http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/Godwin's-Law.html

(p.s. http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/ )

	08-01-2003 04:04									#10
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Thanks SlowHand, I was waiting for someone to bring up God and family. Family is more important than Nation. My family are the only ones who give a **** whether or not I eat. The problem here is that the Nation doesn't really respect the sanctity of the home any more. The Bill of Rrights was our guard against tyranny, but the War on Drugs and the War on Terrorism has almost completely eroded the Bill of Rights. Now with the Rico Act and the Patriot Act, the government can seize your property without the benefit of a court trial, lock you away without legal representation among other things.

Sandman: The species? Glib, but interesting, could you expound a little more on that please? We are certainly not a United Planet or anything.

lightblue: You say you couldn't care less about the Nation. That is a fairly cavalier statement. Are you saying that you don't care when someone betrays their Nation's interests. Where do you stand on treason? A traitor in one Nation is a hero in another. Same question for you paiktis. I am not saying you are wrong, but this isn't a simplistic issue.

Orange: I agree with you.

	08-01-2003 04:09									#12
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Answer to topic: Sex, drugs and rock n' roll.

	08-01-2003 04:11									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Ari Rahikkala http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/Godwin's-Law.html (p.s. http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/ )

Are you saying my thread was DOA?

The first link didn't work for me.

	08-01-2003 04:12									#14
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quote: Originally posted by MosesPresley lightblue: You say you couldn't care less about the Nation. That is a fairly cavalier statement. Are you saying that you don't care when someone betrays their Nation's interests. Where do you stand on treason? A traitor in one Nation is a hero in another. Same question for you paiktis. I am not saying you are wrong, but this isn't a simplistic issue.

Hmm, let me explain where I come from. I carry a Dutch passport, I've grown up in Luxembourg and have lived in the UK for the past 6 years. I don't have roots, and would not call any particular place home over the other. As such I'd say I do not have a Nation in the meaning you assign to it.

In general I assign respect for human rights a far greater importance, so if those would be endangered by the actions of whatever government of whatever nation I would find myself in, then acting against this government would not be an act of treason on my part, but rather a justified fight.

The only people that can commit treason in my view are those that endanger the freedom of other people, and as such are more likely to be politicians rather than someone sending back research data to China or something.

	08-01-2003 04:17									#15
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quote: Originally posted by statusperfect Answer to topic: Sex, drugs and rock n' roll.

They tried that here in 60's. :making whoopee smiley:

	08-01-2003 04:18									#16
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Grah, vBulletin doesn't have much love for apostrophes in URLs... Godwin's Law

	08-01-2003 04:19									#17
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Everything's more important than the nation. A nation is simply an arbitrary lasso thrown around a group of people. They are invented realities, they do not describe real things. Nations are things of the past. One day they will all be abolished.

	08-01-2003 04:19									#18
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Family, friends, yourself, and more.

The nation is just fiction created trough human evolution "or stupidity" in the struggle for power.

Well nation, it is more a state, has meaning today, and preserving it is important as usually the one you are preserving it against would come and abuse you.

SO traitor? WHat did they do? IS he a murderer or what? There should be some real crime attached to traitors (at least some gov. secrets given away)... so one can say that you have endangered the state, but the state should (of course it doesn't) mean people living in it. And therefore you are guilty.

Yes it is a stupid notion, but it makes sense when a group of people attacks you (another nation). You can indentify more easily who do you call to help you defend. It has a cause in very basic human nature... however normal life and all associated with it is more important than the nation.

	08-01-2003 04:20									#19
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Thanks Ari Rahikkala.

	08-01-2003 04:21									#20
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"All for one, and one for all."

-The Three Musketeers

	08-01-2003 04:23									#21
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I agree with slowwhand, but as for the primacy of the nation over the individual-

You can't have a nation without the people. The nation is the people. I seem to remember Gandhi saying something like that about India where the real India is not found in the conference room with delegates, but is found in the people themselves. You can never speak for the entire nation, since they are people you will never meet or see.

	08-01-2003 04:25									#22
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Everything's more important than the nation. A nation is simply an arbitrary lasso thrown around a group of people. They are invented realities, they do not describe real things. Nations are things of the past. One day they will all be abolished.

That's post modern bullshit

A healthy modern democratic nation is good for the fighting spirit and identity of the people living in it.

	08-01-2003 04:25									#23
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If you're truely interested in the issue I recommend "Nations and Nationalism since 1780" by Eric Hobsbawm. He hardly sees it the same way as you do but that alone is not a good enough reason not to read it. It's a standard book on the issue.

	08-01-2003 04:27									#24
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I recommend this book also

	08-01-2003 04:30									#25
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Everything's more important than the nation. A nation is simply an arbitrary lasso thrown around a group of people. They are invented realities, they do not describe real things. Nations are things of the past. One day they will all be abolished.

I agree che, but what will they be replaced by: A Family of Man, the United Planet, any ideas on what that might look like? The Nation appears to our strongest social construct right now, but it leads to endless wars, so logically, I assume there must be an alternative.

	08-01-2003 04:32									#26
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I'm with lightblue (except for the part about supporting Holland in football ). Coincidentally, I'm a Belgian living in Holland.

Except for supporting my country in sports there's very little I feel for "my nation".

And as OFITG said, treason is not a crime (sure, it may suck for the nation involved... tough luck).

	08-01-2003 04:32									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin If you're truely interested in the issue I recommend "Nations and Nationalism since 1780" by Eric Hobsbawm. He hardly sees it the same way as you do but that alone is not a good enough reason not to read it. It's a standard book on the issue.

I'll take a look. Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for agreement, but a good dialogue and who knows, there are a lot of smart people here, maybe a solution.

statusperfect: "A healthy modern democratic nation is good for the fighting spirit and identity of the people living in it."

Democracy is nice, but the tyranny of the mob overpowers the needs of the minority or the individual.

	08-01-2003 04:35									#28
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quote: Originally posted by statusperfect That's post modern bullshit

Hardly. Post-modernism would see the nation as being as valid as any other group, since they would all be arbitrarily created groups, even familes, ethnicities, etc. On the other hand, those who've studied nationalism and the concept of nation intensely, such as I have, know that the concept of nation is only a little more than 200 years old, that nations are arbitrarily created (ask the Finns for example) and have little to do with geography (the Jews) or language (the Swiss). In simple words, nations are simply groups of people that call themselves a nation and that others agree they are a nation.

	08-01-2003 04:36									#29
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"The Nation appears to our strongest social construct right now."
-Moses Presley


What about a family? Doesn't a family count as a social construct, or is it something else?

	08-01-2003 04:39									#30
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Hardly. Post-modernism would see the nation as being as valid as any other group, since they would all be arbitrarily created groups, even familes, ethnicities, etc. On the other hand, those who've studied nationalism and the concept of nation intensely, such as I have, know that the concept of nation is only a little more than 200 years old, that nations are arbitrarily created (ask the Finns for example) and have little to do with geography (the Jews) or language (the Swiss). In simple words, nations are simply groups of people that call themselves a nation and that others agree they are a nation.

My point is that they benefit from calling themselves a nation. Don't `they?