08-01-2003 20:29									#1
	Palace move: the proper way Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If the proposal to use Seti to move the palace fails, as it appears it most likely will, at the moment, I suggest that we conduct an investigation to find the best location for a palace in the following way:
First, we propose 4 sites to the public (including Macross city). Each citizen can choose 2 cities (multi-option poll) that he'd like the new committee to examine. The committee then examines 3 sites: the 2 elected sites and Apolyton, our current capital.
The process that will determine a city's score as a palace location is as follows:
The committe calculates how much corruption every city would suffer in each one of the three cases, calculates how many shields each city would produce for every palace location and sums up the numbers. The palace location for which the highest number of shields will be produced will be selected and then a bill will be proposed to use the next GL to move the palace there.
This method is based on the fact that the bottom line is not how much corruption our empire would suffer from in average, but how many shields it would produce. This is why it's best to build a palace in a location that would benefit the most productive cities, even if it neglects the less productive ones.

Should the public (that's you!) agree to the forming of such a committee, there still remains the question of who will be part of this committee. I for one cannot volunteer because I am running for FAM the next term, and if I'm not elected I will probably keep my job as RA of Ghengland if Ghengis doesn't reclaim his old job. Therefore, we need other volunteers - anyone?

P.S. Yes, I know there was once talk of forming a second palace move committee and nothing came out of it, but I have faith in this fine crowd and I believe we can do it right this time around.

	08-01-2003 21:09									#2
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Should the bill fail, I'd rather have an Army built with Seti than keep him around preventing us from getting additional leaders.

Perhaps the commitee can report a city in time for two or three Great Leaders from now.

	08-01-2003 21:18									#3
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I will try to provide the Corruption charts for the cities that are named. I'll see what I can come up with for now.

THe thing is, do we want to ultamatly take over parts of Greece or more of the Southern Contenant?

E_T

	08-01-2003 21:19									#4
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Should the bill fail, we can build Wall Street or Battlefield Medicine with Seti. Why resort to building an army when we don't have any real needs for one right now?
Wall Street and Battlefield Medicine will serve us better right now than an army.

	08-01-2003 21:22									#5
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quote: Originally posted by E_T I will try to provide the Corruption charts for the cities that are named. I'll see what I can come up with for now.

Thanks! You'll need to slightly modify it to accept the number of shields produced in each city (before corruption) and display the number of shields produced for every city after corruption and the sum total of shields.

quote: THe thing is, do we want to ultamatly take over parts of Greece or more of the Southern Contenant? E_T

AFAIK the majority of the senate are against a war with Greece, or prefer a war with England and a war with Zululand first. In any case, the committee, once selected, should tend to these issues, poll the public and take the results into consideration.

	08-01-2003 21:43									#6
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Do we have 5 Hospitals built yet? We can't build Battefield Medicine until that is done.

As for Wall Street, it's less expensive small wonder than an Army is to build with a military academy. The MA itself needs to be built in the IW city.

quote: Originally posted by Shiber Should the bill fail, we can build Wall Street or Battlefield Medicine with Seti. Why resort to building an army when we don't have any real needs for one right now? Wall Street and Battlefield Medicine will serve us better right now than an army.

	08-01-2003 21:53									#7
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Build an Army.

	08-01-2003 21:59									#8
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Do we have 5 Hospitals built yet? We can't build Battefield Medicine until that is done.

I didn't think we can either until I've read something in another thread that made me think that we can build Battlefield Medicine. I didn't have time to check the save then.

quote: As for Wall Street, it's less expensive small wonder than an Army is to build with a military academy. The MA itself needs to be built in the IW city.

This is an interesting subject.
Suppose we build an army, which would save us 800 shields, and leave Wall Street to be built in Ferropolis. It would take 13 turns to complete the Iron Works. Then we'd probably want to build a factory as well, which would take about 8 turns more. Then we'd finally build Wall Street, which would take, say, 12 turns?
Now, if we build Wall Street now we'd save only 400 shields, but we'd get Wall Street 33 turns earlier. That means an extra 1,650 gold made.
Come to think of it, this choice seems very balanced. I guess I won't mind either way.

	08-01-2003 22:18									#9
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Actually, Wall Street shouldn't be built in Ferroplis as it's too busy.

Feropolis is going to be building the Military Academy and enough armies to enable the Pentagon following geting the Iron Works, Hospital, several workers joined to the city, and a Factory.

I'm thinking that any city with both a Factory & Hospital that's not busy building another wonder would be an excelent candidate to normal build Wall Street.

	08-01-2003 23:00									#10
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Hmm... that would mean that Wall Street would be further delayed, and in essense, we'd lose 50 gold for every additional turn that it is delayed.
I can't say I like this, but if 4-unit armies is what people really want, or what people think that our empire needs, then I guess this is the way to go.

	08-01-2003 23:47									#11
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The rating method stated in the opening of the thread remains flawed. The shield analysis must include planned shield multiplier effects rather than current multiplier effects. The most important thing to remember is that Ferropolis shield count must be doubled for IW and then bumped again for Factory and Hoovers.

So take the number of shields shown on the radius plot

Factory -> 100% + 50% = 1.5x in the shield summary display
Factory+PP -> 100% + 50% + 50% = 2.0x in the shield summary display
Factory + PP + IW -> 100% + 100% + 50% + 50% = 3.0x in the shield summary display

Ferropolis now has no multipliers but will end up with a 3x so scale current by 3x

Cities without factories but factory is planned now have no multipliers but will end up with a 2x so scale current by 2x
Cities with factories but awaiting Hoovers now have 1.5 but will end up with 2.0 so scale by 2/1.5 = 1.3333x

Cities without factories and none planned have no multipliers and will end up with none so scale by 1x

If we do a proper analysis, the winner will probably be the little hill bound city immediately east of Ferropolis and the peace freaks will complain as that location sets us up for a war with Russia.

In any event, we cannot end the 1310 turn until this issue is settled.

Ssgt roadcage (retired)

	09-01-2003 00:34									#12
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Agreed.

	09-01-2003 06:19									#13
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Shiber, please identify which part (hopefully all) of the previous post you agree with.

Thanks

	10-01-2003 02:48									#14
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hi ,

, only good ideas here

we should get wall street as soon as possible and decide for ones and for all about the palace move , its taking up a great deal of time , .....

does anyone have some type of calculations concerning the palace move , ....

have a nice day

	10-01-2003 03:04									#15
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I take it your refering to the city SE of the Iron Works that's still finishing up the aquaduct?

quote: Originally posted by roadcage If we do a proper analysis, the winner will probably be the little hill bound city immediately east of Ferropolis Ssgt roadcage (retired)

	10-01-2003 04:44									#16
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aka Lhasa. Yes that's the one. Wouldn't that just be the cats meow?

	10-01-2003 05:20									#17
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quote: THe thing is, do we want to ultamatly take over parts of Greece or more of the Southern Contenant? E_T

quote: AFAIK the majority of the senate are against a war with Greece, or prefer a war with England and a war with Zululand first. In any case, the committee, once selected, should tend to these issues, poll the public and take the results into consideration. Shiber

Did I not read somewhere that England & Zululand are both Forbidden Palace centric.
I guess E_T is looking even further down the future.
If the palace is moved North...Greece would most likely become a target.

	10-01-2003 05:37									#18
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If we wanted Wall Street, we should have built it eons ago when the 50/turn would have mattered. I am not saying don't build it, just that it is no longer a priority. We have adequate cash flow prospects without it.

You need 5 hospitals for BFM

	10-01-2003 10:38									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Did I not read somewhere that England & Zululand are both Forbidden Palace centric. I guess E_T is looking even further down the future. If the palace is moved North...Greece would most likely become a target.

Yes, the Palace move is VERY Expensive. With the more cities that you have, the more it costs to build a new Palace. One of the Previous Regional areas that we had (long in the past) planned to annex, were areas of the Greek Nation.

2 terms ago, when I was the City Planner, there was a plan to build that Palace at Timeline (and the FP at Conaginon, now TFC). I found out that the move to that location would actually be detrimental to the Nation. I then had presented to the Population at the time (the New con & Senate had not taken effect yet) 2 new locations that we could move the palace to. These locaations were at places that we could build the Palace within a reasonable period of time. They where Macross City & Here It Is. Macross City was the better choice, but the Population didn't want the Palace moved at that time and it was left to the Senate (just forming) to form a committee to re-explore and re-recommend a location for the Palace move.

They didn't do it. And here we are now.

The original plans were having us taking a large portion of the Greek Nations. Now we have an oppertunity that didn't exist before. We have a GL that can be used to build the Palace anywhere we what it to be.

So the question becomes, were do we want to have our nation expand in the future? Do we want more of the southern portion of the continent (and the Great Wonders that Rome & Russia currently posses) or do we want more of the northern Continent? Or a mixture of the two?

These are the things that need to be desided on, to find the best place to build the Palace.

E_T

	10-01-2003 11:42									#20
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We want Shields. Pure and simple. Some want to turn the shields into plowshares, and others want to turn the shields into swords.

And since we are in the industrial age after all, most of us have dreams. Dreams that are completely foreign to our grandfathers.

Some have dreams of space ship parts being launched from Cape Ferropolis into the great unknown and a bold new age of discovery unlike any that has gone before.

Some of us have dreams of standing in the reviewing stands at the Ferropolis parade grounds as the Armies of Modern Armor pass by row upon row.

But for now, they are all just pre-builds. No, they are the shields that will be the pre-builds. Shields that fret and strut their time in the production box and then, when done become part of an ever greater source of glory and power for Apolytonia. Just simple shields.

How we decide to use those shields is not the question of today, but the question of tomorrow. What we need to address today is how can we best insure that these shields will be there for our children and our childrens children. How best to insure that the dreams of today be realized in our glorious future.

The question for today is what can we do to encourage, no, what can we do to dare our nation to dream.

Ssgt roadcage (retired)

Last edited by roadcage on 25-07-2003 at 16:35

	10-01-2003 18:02									#21
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Expand north!

	10-01-2003 23:30									#22
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Actually a Centrally located palace is very suboptimal with any FP location in times of peace. (The only worse locations are P closer to the FP than the center of the empire.)

The easiest apporxatioomation of the P-FP problem is a flat earth with the idea of minimzing the grand CN total composed of the minimum between the P & FP.

In such a case, this is always achieved by having the P & FP in the pair of cities furthest away from each other.

In a Cylinder map like Civ III is played on, the answer is probably the same, it's just harder to determine which pair of cities are furthest from each other because both clockwise and counter clockwise around must be considered in cases where it's non-obvious.

-----

Since we have a fixed FP, perhaps someone could tell us which city within our empire is furthest away from The Forbiden City, checking both clockwise and anticlockwise because our contientant extends over such a large amount of territory on the map.

While the actual city that is furthest away is probably the wrong choice because of the distance to p/fp in the corruption formulas that this aproximation ignores I'd be suprized if the optimum location for the Palace using E_T's & Roadcage is more than 10 cities away from that location.

	11-01-2003 00:58									#23
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We don't need the whole way around the earth - we only need our current and future empire.

	11-01-2003 01:27									#24
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Panzer32, what we are talking about is which distance is closer, the one across the map, or around the map. What joncnunn is suggesting is that the greatest minimum cylindrical distance is a proxy for where to begin the search for the optimum location.

	11-01-2003 01:37									#25
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It turns out that our contienant spans 38 1/2 west to east, and the section not in our contienant is 33 1/2 west to east.

It turns out that the city furthest away from our FP that's currently inside our empire is newly captured Brundism, which isn't too far from half way around the world from the FP.

(33 tiles going east from Brundism to the Forbiden City and 39 tiles going west from Brundism to the Forbiden City) (North / South ignored)

Marcoss City is the 10th furthest city away currently inside our empire from Brundism.

Last edited by joncnunn on 11-01-2003 at 01:58

	11-01-2003 01:39									#26
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hi ,

take our great nation , cut it in two , put a palace in the middle of each half , simple , ....

have a nice day

	11-01-2003 02:18									#27
	Distance Calculation Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

The distance formula is still calculated the same:

Dist = SquareRoot ( Square (distx) + Square (disty) )

where the x & y distances are figures along the NW-SE and NE-SW lines. There is another formula that uses the NSEW lines, but is a bit more complex & will return the same Result.

E_T

	11-01-2003 02:32									#28
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Yes, that was first apporxiation, and it turns out that further conquests won't move first approximation much.

(Athough we would have to annex much of Rome & Russia for that city to pass the resonableness test.)

The biggest thing it reveled was that if Marcoss City is the wrong place, the correct location is much more likely to be west of there than east.

quote: Originally posted by roadcage Panzer32, what we are talking about is which distance is closer, the one across the map, or around the map. What joncnunn is suggesting is that the greatest minimum cylindrical distance is a proxy for where to begin the search for the optimum location.

	11-01-2003 07:27									#29
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I can live with that. Brundesium is a good old name going all the way back to CivI. But of course we will need to 'Polyize' it

	12-01-2003 03:14									#30
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hi ,

no matter what the is done here , the people shall tell us what to do , so what is really needed is a set of calculations that show the pro's and con's , ......

have a nice day