09-01-2003 02:42									#1
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Clarification regarding our viewpoint
[Sent to BetaHound with additional copies to Eli, Dissident, and Jon Miller just to make sure it gets through in a timely manner.]

Greetings BetaHound and Vox Controli,

I did not mean to cause offense in my earlier message (and please keep in mind that I am an economist and not a diplomat by profession) but rather to make sure you recognized the seriousness of our concerns. Imagine yourselves in our position. A nation just told you that they respected your right to explore and hoped that you would respect theirs. Then, when your explorers actually attempted to explore their side of the continent, they found their path blocked by a unit fortified in such a way that no one could pass. Would not your first impression be that their claim to respect your right to explore was, or at least had the appearance of being, deceptive and hypocritical? And if they did not prove trustworthy when claiming to respect your right to explore, would that not cause you to question, at least a little, how trustworthy they were regarding other matters? Can you honestly say that your reaction would have been so very different from ours (except, perhaps, in how skilled your diplomats would have been in expressing your concerns)?

As we said in our earlier message, we hoped (as we still hope) that these concerns are unwarranted. But they do still exist. Search as we may, we can find no truly honorable basis for you to continue your explorations south toward us while blocking us from further exploration in your direction (although if you have an explanation that has somehow eluded us, we would love to hear it).

Nonetheless, as time passed, we decided that our desire for a peaceful and mutually beneficial relationship with your people outweighed those concerns. Hence, we set them aside in order to propose a trade that would benefit us both. That does not mean that tensions over the earlier issue have abated completely, but merely that more important matters are at stake. And we have chosen not to let an annoyance (especially one that we still hope can be resolved) get in the way of those weightier matters. Our desire is for mutual prosperity so that when our nations meet the more distant nations that legend says exist, we and not they will have the advantage.

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

	09-01-2003 02:48									#2
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I say that we should pull back our warriors in southern Estonia to the choke-point (or the hills/mountains) surrounding the choke-point. I don't trust them. We need to ensure that the choke-point remains under our control. After we have a city established there, we can send out our warriors to scout the southern portion of the land mass. What do you all think?

	09-01-2003 03:00									#3
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They (GS) do have a valid point though - we are blocking access into the northern portion of the land mass, while our two warriors contrinue to explore the southern landmass.

Ok. I say fine. Lets move our 2 warriors back to the region around the choke-point (on hills/mountains) in order to maintain eyes-on any GS force which moves in our direction.

	09-01-2003 03:08									#4
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thats sounds like a valid compromise

Jon Miller

	09-01-2003 03:09									#5
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recent screen shots??

we don't move back to the chokeoint though

just to the mountains south of it''

Jon jMiller

	09-01-2003 03:14									#6
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Sounds good to me, since when we have a city founded there, those same mountains will be in the city's area. Plus the warriors in the mountains can come to the aid of our defensive force at the choke point if GS shows their true colors.

	09-01-2003 03:20									#7
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After looking at the last screen shot I received (Sunday), I concur. Move our 2 southern most warriors to the mountain south of the choke point. Even though this mountain is 4 tiles away from the isthmus (in my last post, I though the mountain was closer to the isthmus), GS shouldn't ***** (too much) about them being there. Though the warriors wouldn't be able to move quickly to the choke-point (no roads), they can still maintain eyes on the southern region from their vantage point on the mountain top.

	09-01-2003 04:14									#8
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ahh yes.

We do come up with a compromise. I refuse to retreat any further than where we first made contact. Although I would like to settle a little bit south of where we made first contact to utilize those hills. But we can discuss settling south estonia later.

	09-01-2003 04:22									#9
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let me get screen shots out.

I will include a screen shot of where we made first contact. Although I sent that out before.

	09-01-2003 04:45									#10
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ok screen shots sent

I notice they have 4 warriors. I updated the thread of everything. They have 4 known warriors.

I still like to know the dimensions of our continent. What I feel is going to happen if we stop exploring south is we are going to have a land grab for the middle of the continent.

And even the parts we have explored there is the notable absence of hills. Plenty of mountains and jungle though. I would like to at least settle down to where the wheat is. That is the area where we made first contact. But they still have a lot of land mass to the south. More than us- but they do have a big desert.

	09-01-2003 05:58									#11
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A possible solution would be to say that we have a city just a little bit north of that point (though where they can't see the culture) and that it is also on the choke point. Because of this, they wouldn't be able to explore north anyways, and the warriors are just there because it's a good defensive position.

	09-01-2003 05:59									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident ...What I feel is going to happen if we stop exploring south is we are going to have a land grab for the middle of the continent.

Actually, no matter what we do - 1) pull back our warriors or 2) let them continue to explore - We are still going to end up having a land-grab of the middle of the landmass with GS. So as a compromise to GS, let's pull back our warriors (to where 1st contact was made). Later, after our city has claimed the choke-point, we can then push our expansionist efforts southward.

	09-01-2003 06:02									#13
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A unique idea Sky, except when they had their warrior next to our warrior on the choke-point, they would have seen that the northern landmass opens up...so this would be a blatant lie, which they would know right off.

	09-01-2003 06:02									#14
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If we use my suggestion, we could grab the land below there before settling the choke point.

	09-01-2003 06:04									#15
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Oh no, no, no! The choke point needs to be properly under our control first. If GS happends to move up a settler before we can settle the isthmus - we're screwed.

	09-01-2003 06:07									#16
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Aren't our warriors blocking them?

	09-01-2003 06:09									#17
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We can move them and form a larger blockade farther down. They would be 1 warrior to a tile though. The good thing is that they'd be in Jungle.

	09-01-2003 06:17									#18
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But remember, when a combat unit is fortified in a jungle terrain, there is chance (be it slim) that the unit will take damage from disease in the jungle...

looking at the last screen shot of the isthmus, I would still feel better if we had 2 units guarding the choke-point....I just don't trust GS, and now that they have 2 warriors in the region...

	09-01-2003 06:30									#19
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Witt - I agree - the problem now is with the worker pushing the road further south and his ned for protection - which you elaborated elsewhere. It will be nice when we have a spearman or two down there.

Skywalker - hi - we have had the deabte about the third city site. It makes good sense expansion wise, and militarily, to put the city on the chokepoint. I understand your point of pusing it further south - but it would take time. By the time the city is on the chokepoint - the worker will have pushed the road further south - and Miller Town will have pumped out a settler - who by all I have read - will settle down between the wheat and the fishes on the other side of the first mountain. This is going to be a rex race, and they are industrious as well - so it should be interesting.

The surprsing point is that they are further south than I thought. I would have thought we would have seen their civ outline by now, but more on this in the othe thread.

	09-01-2003 06:57									#20
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quote: Originally posted by BetaHound ...The surprsing point is that they are further south than I thought. I would have thought we would have seen their civ outline by now, but more on this in the othe thread.

True. I, for one, am happy that we haven't seen the outline of their border region. This indicates that they are, in fact, further away than originally thought.

Our expansion into the southern region of Estonia will be easier for us than them - they will have a long trek (without the benifit of roads) in order to place a city(s) within the southern "hump" of Southern Estonia.

	09-01-2003 07:11									#21
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I don't think we intended on bringing the road further south right now. We do want to road the luxery. Maybe we can also road the hill just south of the chokepoint as discussed in the other thread.

and if we build settlers in both cities we can build the cities fairly close to each other. Do we want to build settlers in both cities when they finish their current project?

	09-01-2003 07:21									#22
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I would say "YES" to building settlers in both cities after they finish their spearmen.

	09-01-2003 07:28									#23
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Yup - I'm happy too that GS is further south than originally anticipated.

Diss - then where is the worker right now? I can't tell from the screen shot.

I think two settlers are the next builds, definitely. Providing it works with the pop growth.

	09-01-2003 07:38									#24
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The worker is currently with the warrior at the chokepoint location - you can tell by the 2 small white horizontal bars (indicating 2 units) under the health bar of the unit.

	09-01-2003 08:01									#25
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I'm tired and should probably go to bed so I apologize if I sound cranky - but if we weren't intend to continue the road south - what the heck is he doing there?

The other options discussed earlier were connecting the luxury or doing some improvements. Now that he is that far south, move him to the hill and continue the road. We will have to talk our way out of it with GS.

If it is felt that that is too high a risk - then move him back up north - but we will have wasted two turns of worker moves.

As I said - sorry - I'm tired.

	09-01-2003 08:19									#26
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No apologies needed Beta - I was actually wondering the same thing myself...

	10-01-2003 05:20									#27
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Oops - I entirely forgot about the jungle thing. I have *NEVER* seen it happen.

	10-01-2003 11:07									#28
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I have never seen (or noticed my units taking damage). although it may have happened one time. Now cities on the other hand...

	10-01-2003 18:47									#29
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I've had it happen with units as well . They start taking hit point losses if I remember.

	10-01-2003 20:53									#30
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Exactly, the unit can slowly start loosing hitpoints. It happends rarely, but it does happen.