09-01-2003 04:58									#1
	Are unions still valuable? Were they ever? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The more I look at labor unions, at least in North America, the more I think they are passed their prime. I think they played an invaluable role back in the days of robber barons in establishing worker's rights, but today I think these rights are well enough established by labor laws that they are unlikely to be repealed. This isn't to say that I don't think unions do some good, but rather that on balance, they are detremental. I think that most have become massive bureaucracies that are more interested in maintaining their own power position rather than actually doing what is best for their members.

Discuss.

	09-01-2003 05:02									#2
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i do think they are past their prime but im part of one and i think it serves a good purpose. they provide me with dental medical and vision plans at low cost. also they worked to get me a wage increase after working for the compant for 3 months.

but yeah, they dont have the same impact they used to.

	09-01-2003 05:10									#3
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depends on the union. Manufacturing unions like UAW are definitely on the skids, but building and skilled machine unions are as strong as ever, as well they should be.

	09-01-2003 05:45									#4
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I think it depends on the union as well. My brother is in the maintenance engineers union. I have been trying to get into that one. But after the test and interview I still only end up like 30 on the list. I need to get into the top 25 to get a job.

But that is a good union. Very responsible. Not very corrupt from what I can tell.

Basically I still do feel unions are important despite the corruption. You have to come to Las Vegas to really see the effects. More and more places are going non-union to save money. They pay their workers low wages.

Then you have walmart moving in with their superstores. Our cashier's union faught that, but they only stalled walmart. Walmart cashiers are non-union and get paid less than other supermarket cashier's. Although walmart claims their cashier's get good benefits. I can't say for sure, I have never worked there.

	09-01-2003 06:04									#5
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Unions, problematic as they are, still serve a purpose. If you want to know what life would be like in the US without them, consider that in the states in the US where unions are the strongest, wages are higher, productivity is higher, crime is lower, job security is not only higher, there are more jobs, life expectency is longer, people have better retirements, etc. Then look at the "right-to-work" states.

Even non-union people benefit from having unions around, because union companies set the standards that other companies have to match, and non-union companies will give better contracts to keep from having workers organize.

Unions have a lot of problems, but since the boss has all the power, your only protection as a worker is to be either irreplaceable or organized. No-one is irreplaceable forever. Only organization gives you the ability to stand up to the boss on equal terms.


Let's put it another way, if unions weren't still valuable, companies wouldn't spend millions and millions of dollars to keep them out.

	09-01-2003 06:24									#6
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I agree with Che. Fancy that.

	09-01-2003 06:27									#7
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Don't feel bad, even a stopped clock is right twice a day (by which I'm refering to you, because I'm always right. ).

	09-01-2003 06:29									#8
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Che, give me a break. You would faint if you got within pissing distance of the right.

	09-01-2003 06:31									#9
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Okay, which arm? arty:
Sorry, I'm in a good mood right now, knowing that I'm not gonna be homeless!!!!





My ferret of doom laughs at you.

	09-01-2003 06:34									#10
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I agree that it depends on the union, and, by extension, your line of work.

I used to work for a bank a few years back that was/is struggling with unionization. Some branches actually joined the union (CUPE, IIRC). The union was trying to organize a drive in the branch I worked at (and subsequently left, for unrelated reasons). The general feeling was that it shouldn't go throught, and I personally never would have voted for unionization, nor would I have joined if it came to pass. In my situation, I only saw big drawbacks to unionization - I was young, pretty new to the company, and desitined to move up fast via my own merits. After having worked there for less than a year, I was already in a supervisory position and looking for another promotion (which I ended up getting and which moved me to another branch). Had the union come in, at least at that branch, all that would have been quashed since I lacked seniority. Also, I wouldn't have been able to get promoted to another unionized branch since the union rules stipulated that all first rights of promotion had to come from within the union, and only from outside if no one else could be found. It wouldn't have mattered if I was better than a unionized employee, as long as they could feasibly do the job, they would get it before me.

I can see how if you belonged to, say, the IBEW, it could be a good thing since you may well not be working for a large company, and where individual performance in relation to your co-workers wasn't as big an issue.

	09-01-2003 06:42									#11
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Unions are about security, about having a say in the rules at the workplace, not advancement. You may think you're better off without a union, and that may be the case, but most people are not, because most people are average, ordinary people. When you need to deal with the boss, you are in a much more secure position with the rest of the work place behind you than on your own, no matter how good you think you may be, cuz guess what, there's always someone better than you. No one is indispensible forever. If you are that important, and you use that as leverage against the company, they'll find a way to replace you.

	09-01-2003 08:03									#12
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Labor Unions were once the only hope of improvement of the working class. Then they became a drag on the economy and competitiveness. Then they became scams to support some incompetant workers so they couldn't be removed no matter how useless they were.

But the pendulum is starting to swing back to unions having real value again. Right now, they can be valuable again.

	09-01-2003 08:04									#13
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Just a couple comments, because I don't have time to get into another econ thread right now...

Chegitz:

quote: Unions, problematic as they are, still serve a purpose. If you want to know what life would be like in the US without them, consider that in the states in the US where unions are the strongest, wages are higher, productivity is higher, crime is lower, job security is not only higher, there are more jobs, life expectency is longer, people have better retirements, etc. Then look at the "right-to-work" states.

And joining a union cures acne? Not all or even most of the difference can be attributed to unions. I think there are a few contemporaneous facotrs which you have not taken account of.

quote: Unions are about security

The flip side of this is that they slow technical change. Consider the railroad unions. For decades they required six man crews, when only two people were needed. They also imposed six years of severance pay if their members were laid off. These sorts of conditions nearly bankrupted the railroad industry, and lead to the growth of much less environmentally friendly truck transportation.

Unions can be helpful when there are monopsony conditions (workers only have one possible employer). This can often be the case in developing countries, where there is not much geographic worker mobility. Numerous studies have found that workers in the US do not face monopsony conditions (eg., the "U-Haul" index of economic conditions), so this does not apply in the US.

	09-01-2003 08:07									#14
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absolutely! A Union working together can work to further the good of every individual in it. It can lobby for better conditions and pay. It's good to have people who will go to bat for you if you're getting shafted, especially by a powerful corporation.

	09-01-2003 08:09									#15
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Unions are about equal bargaining power.

For twelve friggin' years, I was a "temporary" employee, and--because we were only temporary--we were the lowest paid in California. Management tried to fire one woman because she went on maternity leave. When she pointed out that was illegal, they took her back and then fired her for disloyalty when they discovered she was looking for another job.

I had one foot out the door myself when I realized that, if I left without changing the system, it would never get any better. Instead of quitting, I contacted the organizing section of a union.

After nearly a year of organizing, our new local was certified. After another a year of bargaining (read "stalling"), we got a contract recognizing us as permanent and got the biggest percentage raise ever given to non-managment personnel. (I don't think we'll ever be able to match the 75% raise management gave to itself.)

As a result, last summer I went on my first vacation in 15 years, and I'm currently thinking about buying a house.

	09-01-2003 08:13									#16
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If unions were abolished tomorrow, this country would be on a slippery slope back to those good ol' robber baron days. If I'm wrong though, we should legalize murder. I mean, that law is well established enough, isn't it?

	09-01-2003 09:14									#17
	Re: Are unions still valuable? Were they ever? Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Kontiki The more I look at labor unions, at least in North America, the more I think they are passed their prime. I think they played an invaluable role back in the days of robber barons in establishing worker's rights, but today I think these rights are well enough established by labor laws that they are unlikely to be repealed. This isn't to say that I don't think unions do some good, but rather that on balance, they are detremental. I think that most have become massive bureaucracies that are more interested in maintaining their own power position rather than actually doing what is best for their members. Discuss.

Spot on, Kontiki. Most U.S. labor unions are little more than cheerleading clubs for the Demonrats. This despite the rank and file being almost evenly divided.

	09-01-2003 09:45									#18
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OTOH, if unions artifically raise wages and benefits too high, it might lead to unemployment by raising the cost of labor too high, there needs to be a balance.

Last edited by Shi Huangdi on 09-01-2003 at 09:56

	09-01-2003 09:55									#19
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hmmm... too high? nahhhh.... I won't bite on this one... too easy

	09-01-2003 09:56									#20
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Unions are still valuable... however, I believe in having 'right-to-work' states. If you don't want to join a union, you shouldn't have to. Of course those on the left that speak of democracy wish to force people into joining unions, many of them which are corrupt and take union dues to pad their own pockets. A damned shame.

	09-01-2003 09:57									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Sava hmmm... too high? nahhhh.... I won't bite on this one... too easy

Basic economics. The higher the cost of any item gets, the less of it will be demanded.

	09-01-2003 09:58									#22
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unions should be voluntary ... damn Imran... when was the last time we agreed on anything?

	09-01-2003 10:23									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Unions are about equal bargaining power. For twelve friggin' years, I was a "temporary" employee, and--because we were only temporary--we were the lowest paid in California. Management tried to fire one woman because she went on maternity leave. When she pointed out that was illegal, they took her back and then fired her for disloyalty when they discovered she was looking for another job. I had one foot out the door myself when I realized that, if I left without changing the system, it would never get any better. Instead of quitting, I contacted the organizing section of a union. After nearly a year of organizing, our new local was certified. After another a year of bargaining (read "stalling"), we got a contract recognizing us as permanent and got the biggest percentage raise ever given to non-managment personnel. (I don't think we'll ever be able to match the 75% raise management gave to itself.) As a result, last summer I went on my first vacation in 15 years, and I'm currently thinking about buying a house.

I was under the impression that you were very wealthy.

	09-01-2003 10:26									#24
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certainly I agree that unions should be voluntary, and that no one should physically or otherwise prevent someone from going to work. And I also agree with what Black Dragon said.

Too much unionism will make mechanized labour more and more attractive. But we're on that path anyway, so it's just stalling the inevitable. Unions though are a good thing in my opinion.

	09-01-2003 21:18									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Sava If I'm wrong though, we should legalize murder. I mean, that law is well established enough, isn't it?

Here's one of the most patently rediculous statements ever made. First of all, it directly contradicts itself - murder should be made legal because laws preventing it are well established? What kind of Fezzian logic is that? Second, the point is that there are labor laws in place which, thanks to unions in the past, protect workers rights. Nowhere did I say that existing labor laws should be abolished - quite the contrary. It seems that many argue that unions still form a necessary part of that process, and I can't totally disagree.

	09-01-2003 21:26									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Unions are still valuable... however, I believe in having 'right-to-work' states. If you don't want to join a union, you shouldn't have to.

One of the problems with right-to-work states is, you don't have to join the union, but you still get all of the benefits of the union if there's one at your worksite. This encourages people not to pay dues but still use the greivance system, get benefits, etc. If you don't want to be part of the union, that's fine, but then you should be all the way out.

And kudos to Zkribbler!

	09-01-2003 21:30									#27
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quote: Originally posted by orange I was under the impression that you were very wealthy.

Well sure, now. God bless the union.

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi OTOH, if unions artifically raise wages and benefits too high, it might lead to unemployment by raising the cost of labor too high, there needs to be a balance.

How can there be a balance without equal bargaining power? Higher salary means more purchasing power, leading to increased demand, more production, & more profits.

Compare the economic power of the U.S., Canada & Western Europe (which have unions) to the Third World (which have no effective unions).

	09-01-2003 21:57									#28
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I dont think theres any doubt that unions were (and occasionally still are) a necessity to force better working conditions for many people. Unfortunately, the labour movement was suborned early on by the communists who have too often used it for their own ends. In some countries in which I've lived such as Sweden the unions still provide a useful service for their members, and almost act as a level of government because of their massive (moderate) strength. In Canada, however, the unions are analogous to a huge bloated parasite under the direction of psychotic leftists (just look at the postal service for one example).

Two countries that have had good economic growth since the early eighties are the USA and Britain, both of which confronted the radical unions and subdued their malicious activities.

	09-01-2003 22:20									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith The flip side of this is that they slow technical change. Consider the railroad unions. For decades they required six man crews, when only two people were needed. They also imposed six years of severance pay if their members were laid off. These sorts of conditions nearly bankrupted the railroad industry, and lead to the growth of much less environmentally friendly truck transportation.

I was a freight train conductor for CP rail for 5 years, I
was also in manufacturing ISIT for 10 years.

The Trucking industry growth is a result of Just in Time manufacturing doctine. (ie NO stocks).

Government law changes (trucks so long they can't turn a corner, truckers driving 60+ hours a week, no safety standards until wheels flying off trucks were killing people). Are a direct result of industrial lobbying.

The UTU (rail union) is not responsible for the demise
of railroads. They do look after their members well.
And the standards for railroaders are very high, which
is a comfort considering what freight they are carrying though your towns.

Oh, the two man crew is just a disaster waiting to happen. The reason I left the railroad was their was
no way I was going to be switchin' out a train in a
yard at 3:00 am in the morning by myself. I want
to keep ALL my limbs as well as my life.

	09-01-2003 22:26									#30
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After some of the evidence for railroad engineers falling asleep (microsleep) while operating locomotives and missing lights I think there should be more engineers not less.