04-12-2000 14:15									#1
	eco damage Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

ok how can I stop it cause it is out of control. Hybrid tree farms preserves and temples aren't helping. What should I do. I have the cloning vats so I'm pop boming and I have 6 or 7 size 16 bases producing around 60 minerals per turn (I built to many Nessus minning opps). Is there anything I can too cause I've allready caused global warming once and I get worms spawning everyturn (I've taken to patroling with my custom trance copters. I get heaps from planet pearls though.

	04-12-2000 14:39									#2
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It's a difficult situation. You have caught Yourself in a trap of ecodamage building nessus orbs too much and too fast. Or do You have used nerve gas against human factions? This will cause giant ecodamage.
If You have just build all possible eco-enhancements
(tree farms, hybrid forests, centauri reservats etc.),
the only possibility to reduce ecodamage is to reduce Your mineral production. Reorganize Your crawlers to pick energy instead of minerals, and switch some of Your producing population from workers to empaths. This should reduce Your damage, and the increasing income should partly equalize the decreasing mineral production. Buying instead of building.

	04-12-2000 14:46									#3
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• Use all ecodamage-reducing facilities
  
• Increase your Planet rating (ie. switch to Green)
  
• Reduce the mineral production at your bases (take workers off the offending squares, use crawlers for food if necessary to maintain base population)
  
• Scrap mineral-enhancing facilities (Genejack factory, etc)
  
• Use fewer high-pollution terraforming enhancements, especially boreholes
  
• Don't use nerve gas
  

	04-12-2000 17:13									#5
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AFAIK, Nessus minerals are "clean", ie don't produce any eco-damage. At least that's what Prima says, and I know a lot of people don't trust them, but it seems to be the case in this situation. Can anyone confirm or ridicule this?

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The best way to avoid errors is not to do anything - Dr Beardon (Maths)

("Something is worth doing"=>"It is worth doing properly")<=>("Something is not worth doing properly"=>"It is not worth doing") - A truth first expounded by Murgatroyd

	04-12-2000 19:48									#6
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Here's the formula from concepts.txt (my bolding):

#ADVCONCEPT2

The ecological damage formula is complex:

^(1) For each base total the number of Mines, Solar Collectors, Farms, Soil Enrichers, Roads, Mag Tubes, Condensers, Mirrors and Boreholes.

Items in squares which are actually being worked count double.

^(2) Add an extra +8 for each Borehole, +6 for each Mirror, and +4 for each Condenser.
^(3) Subract 1 for each Forest.
^(4) Halve if base has Tree Farm, and Eliminate if also has Hybrid Forest.
^(5) Divide this value by 8, and reduce by up to 16 plus # of previous damages. Set this number aside.
^(6) Take the number of minerals produced this turn (but not from Orbit)
^(7) If result from 5 was reduced by less than 16+#, reduce result 6 by remaining amount.
^(8) Divide minerals by 1 plus # of Centauri Preserve, Temple of Planet, Nanoreplicator.
^(9) Sum the values of (5) and (8), and add +5 for each major atrocity.
^(10) If Alpha Prime is at perihelion (20 years out of every 80), double your value.
^
^Ecology% = (ValueFromStep10) * Difficulty * Technologies * (3-PLANET) * LIFE / 300^
^Difficulty = Normally 3, but 5 on two highest two difficulty levels.
^Technologies = Number of technologies discovered
^PLANET = Social Engineering PLANET value
^LIFE = Native life level (1-3) from Custom Start

It seems Prima is correct.

Googlie



[This message has been edited by Googlie (edited December 04, 2000).]

	04-12-2000 20:40									#7
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The only problem there is that you shouldn't get any eco-damage if PLANET is 3 or more. I think we decided that wasn't true.

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The best way to avoid errors is not to do anything - Dr Beardon (Maths)

("Something is worth doing"=>"It is worth doing properly")<=>("Something is not worth doing properly"=>"It is not worth doing") - A truth first expounded by Murgatroyd

	04-12-2000 23:56									#8
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do terrian enchancements before tree farms count only if worked or if they lie within the base radius? the reason why I ask is that i will many times place a borehole/mirror/condensor within 2 or 3 bases so I can alternated use based on current needs.

	05-12-2000 00:16									#9
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sory just read the not so fine print in Googlie's reply... now for the follow up question. the terrain will count for being in the base radius, but will only be doubled for the base that is currently working it, correct?

	05-12-2000 10:22									#10
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So, if all of your bases have tree farms and centauri preserves, then the only thing you need to worry about is atrocities and the total amount of mineral production.

What exactly do the Centauri Preserves etc. do? I read somewhere that they have no effect on the base level per se, but effect the overall effect of your pollution on planet. If this is true, then the number in step 8 would be the total number of these facilities in all of your bases. Is this correct? This would allow an enormous amount of production in large empires, which seems suspect. If this is not true (ie these facilities in fact are factored into only the local base equation) then these facilities would allow for the pollution free production of up to 4 times normal. Neither of these things seem quite right. Can someone explain this part of the equation to me?

	06-12-2000 09:40									#11
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A while back in the Bragging thread, Black Sunrise had something like 500 bases, one of which was producing around 600 min with no eco damage, with all the eco facilities in every base. In my games, I run into eco damage after the hundred mark, when I have 20 bases give or take, with eco facilities in all. That seems to indicate (at least to me) that the effects are cumulative, since in my relatively small empire (with +4 planet, Librarian), I was producing eco damage at a much lower min production rate.

	06-12-2000 13:14									#12
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I was running free market ie.-3planet. plus I built the bulk matter transmitter and the singularity inductor. I also have the prima guide (came with smacx) but missed the bit about nessus mine ops being clean minerals. After reading the guide especially the part about the singularity inductor I reliased where the damage was coming from. However I was too late as global warming occured and I couldn't launch a solar shade because I was under the effects of the sunspot random event. So two of my decent mineral producing bases with loads of sp's became sea bases.

	06-12-2000 17:45									#13
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Now you come to mention it, I was playing an OCC as the Gaians - +5 planet rating, no atrocities, no more than 60 mins/turn - yet eco-damage was well into the hundreds. However, I did have echelons/boreholes everywhere - crawlers in their hundreds working energy farms. To be honest, I gave up trying to find a worthwhile formula long ago, and learned to just live with it.
[This message has been edited by mark13 (edited December 06, 2000).]

	06-12-2000 21:20									#14
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+3 planet rating will remove all eco damages related to TERRAFORMING. Mineral productions above a certain limit will always produce eco damage.
Tree Farms and Hybrid Forests combined eliminate terraforming eco damages;
Centauri Preserve, Temple of Planet, and Pholus Mutagen combined reduce mineral production effects on environment by 75%.
Committing minor atrocities(nerve gas, nerve stapling, factiona cleasings) will cause eco damages if UN charter is in place. Using PBs will always cause eco damages.

I hope that clears up.

	06-12-2000 21:35									#15
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The Nessus satellites are clean minerals, but the real culprit is often the Space Elevator. It doubles your mineral production while making orbitals, which results in outrageous eco-damage. Once I have the Elevator, I only build orbitals from small bases with low mineral production.


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Creator of the Ultimate Builder Map, based on the Huge Map of Planet

	07-12-2000 10:02									#16
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I'm saying this off the top of my head, but didn't they fix that in some patch or another (being at work I can't check)

	07-12-2000 03:47									#17
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Yes they did - to what DD said (used to be it halved the cost), the patch corrected it to doubling the minerals when building orbitals - hence the over-the-top eco damage.

the readme.txt file says:

The Space Elevator now correctly doubles mineral production when building satellites

G.

	07-12-2000 13:56									#18
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Wow, I was wondering about that crazy production I was getting. So it's the Space Elevator. What a pain. So now I will have to activate the mineral crawlers of bases building satelites to avoid a real mess. What a pain.

Transcend,

So let me see if I have this straight. Terraforming ecodamage is basically easily eliminated by Treefarm / Hybrid Forest combo, or high planet rating.

Atrocity ecodamage is up to your own behavior.

Mineral production ecodamage is free up to a certain point, and can be limited up to 75% by Centauri Preserves, Temples, The Pholus Mutagen. (What about the Nanoreplicators?) Is this ecodamage reduction a local or an aggregate effect?

	07-12-2000 14:03									#19
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I think you've just gotta live with it. I got mass eco damage in my other game too. I was playing the gains and using green. Once you get 5 or 6 bases producing 70+ minerals a turn no number of preserves and tree farms will save you from global warming
[This message has been edited by Gothar (edited December 07, 2000).]

	07-12-2000 17:46									#20
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Yeah, I suppose it would be unreasonable to suggest that a number of Preserves/projects will spare you from eco-damage althogether. You will inevitably get it if you are producing 60+ mins/turn. The best advice is just to limit industrial capacity, IMO - until later in the game, that is, when you can cope with the worms (and even profit from them ).

	10-12-2000 01:06									#22
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I was trying some stuff on a sea map with deep sea bases powered by orbital, I was using the scenerio editor and the bases had all the facilities and I had heaps of orbitals (as in enough that a deep sea base size will never outgrow the number of orbitals). Anyway the bases produced about 60 minerals per year and had ecodamage of about 30, as I genned turns and the waves of worms washed up against my garrisons I noticed something interesting - the ecodamage was going down over time, eventually it reached 0, despite the fact that I hadn't made any changes to my bases - there is a variable in the calculation involving number of previous attacks

^(5) Divide this value by 8, and reduce by up to 16 plus # of previous damages. Set this number aside.

although as I understand the value should only apply to the terraforming ecodamage, NOT the mineral ecodamage, otoh there shouldn't really be any ecodamage seeing my bases mineral production all came from space and there was no terraforming at all. So my guess is that each mindworm attack reduces ecodamage.

A side note - is there any way to add orbital improvments in the scenerio editor without building them?

Blake

	12-12-2000 00:00									#23
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Eco damage will go down over time because it is affected by the technologies you have. The more, the lower your ecodamage rating. It may also be affected by the 'previous damages' caused by planet on you as well. I remember claims that global release of damage (sea level rises, new volcanos) bled off the eco-damage rating as well, but I don't know if I believed it.

I'm pretty damn sure there is a base to global eco-damage flow, but not so sure there is a global to base vector in the calculation.

In other words, I think that global eco-damage is directly calculated in some way from the bases of all factions, but that the base calculation in no way reflaects the global level. Furthermore, it's my personal belief (with nothing to back it up) that there is NOT a seperate global level calculation, that it ONLY calculated from base eco-damages. If that is true, things like boreholes outside of base radii would have zero affect on the global damages.

	14-12-2000 01:59									#24
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just adding .02$

In my experience, in point 6) you have to consider the base NET mineral production.
I verified many times that homing a unit (needing to be supported) to the base with ecodamage shows a decrease in the ED value.

	14-12-2000 02:57									#25
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MariOne - that is very strange, because the other day I saw an AI base (Morgan)with 11 minerals, every one of them being used to support a unit (that's the AI for you ). It had 3 eco-damage

	15-12-2000 04:04									#26
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well, I verified it too many times to think now that I dreamt.
NOTE, you won't see that decrease ALWAYS.
The algorythm reported in the datalinks is nto allegedly exact.
I am sure that homing a unit DOES "often" decrase the ED, maybe it's not a linear function of the NET minerals, it could be a mixed value (?).
There are times when, because of rounding, removing a worker from an unterrefaormed 1-mineral tile doesn't change your eco-damage.
You ALL surely know that the AI cheats (never saw 4-cells Nutrient rows? or 3-cell mineral rows?), maybe the ED formula too is screwed for them.
Finally, also terraforming is a component of ED, how was that base?

	15-12-2000 04:35									#28
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Mari: You do know that the AI gets a +2 Growth/Industry bonus on Transcend level don't you? That could account for some of the cells missing in the nuts tanks/production rows. besides, even a human player has 4 cell nut tank rows when popbooming (+6 growth).

To play with the industry number, Hive +1, Planned +1, Wealth +1, AI Transcend +2 = +5. If they were running Eudomania, that would be your +7, but I can't see you ever letting the AI get that far in a game .

	15-12-2000 21:33									#29
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Fitz,
The AI gets a number from 4-8 mineral rows depending on its position in the game. Same with nutrient rows - the technologies are also at cut-price. Industry bonuses on top of that, of course, and you have very few minerals expended....

	16-12-2000 11:29									#30
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(personal note: Mari has a somewhat feminine slant by us, not that I care, but a more appropriate ID abbreviation would be Mario - my actual name btw)

Fitz:
I admit that I am not an expert of all the quirks of the AIs, as I usually don't concentrate all my attention on them.
What I meant is that, despite the alleged "non-cheating AI" claims made by this game developers, we know that the last attempt to make'em a match brought to the same old pattern: give them advantages in the higher levels.
I was suggesting that the AI *might* use corrected formulas for several aspects of the game as well, including EcoDamage, and that all that tinkering by the programmers *might* have sorted sometimes the opposite effect. I was just making a conjecture, I have no clue about it.

But then.
Fitz:"besides, even a human player has 4 cell nut tank rows when popbooming (+6 growth)."
Are you positive about that? Do you talk out of personal experience? Did you actually go and count the row cells under the said condition, or do you "assume" it's like that, out of understandable common sense?
Because we must have been playing a different game in the last two years.
The step from Growth+5 to Growth+6 does NOT furtherly decrease the nutrient rows by one cell!
It ONLY "triggers" PopBooming!!!
NO faction played by a human will ever get below 5 cells in their nutrients row.
As I usually say, I *invite* you to not believe me: go and check for yourself! And if you find out that I'm wrong, I'll be GLAD to stand corrected - AFTER I see the evidences you brought.


About Industry, I admit I never thought to check if a human faction could get below the maximum decrease reported in the datalinks (-50%). I know that for Economy you get ever highr bonuses also past the reported table, it could well be the same for Industry.
What I obviously (I thought) meant, was that the AI had shorter rows length that they could possibly have with the techs the knew at the time.
That was not an issue: I was suggesting that the screwed AI engine could be the cause for the odd EcoDamage, so I cited a well known fact to strengthen the reference to the well known AI cheating.
---
Nothing personal, and sorry for the nitpicking.
This thread was about EcoDamage anyway

[final, funny, tension relieving notation about nut rows length: to be 200% sure, I just tested it in a test scenario. I set up a Gaian base in Golden Age, with Creche, Demo/Planned/Eud = Growth+10 (locally). Place you bets: did it have ZERO-length nut rows?]