09-01-2003 06:59									#1
	Roleplay Alliance Proposal... Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: jdjdjd wrote on January 8th, 2003 06:27 pm: Trip and Togas, Great Leaders of the Ottomans and Spanish: Below is the Grand Alliance written by our scribes and approved by myself for You to approve. Please reply to the Other Leader and myself so I know it is fit for Your signatures and acceptance. This is a great day for both of our glorious nations and I thank Your Greatnesses for allowing me to have even the slightest of roles in it. The Grand Alliance: ************************* Trip, Administrator of Lux Invicta and Supreme Leader of the Ottomans; and Togas, Supreme Leader of the Spanish (Roleplay) do hereby agree to the following, which is binding upon the Ottomans (Lux Invicta) and the Spanish (Roleplay) Civilizations in the World (PTW Demo Game). Henceforth, any reference to the Ottomans infers Lux Invicta and reference to Spain infers Roleplay. Preamble: The Peoples of the Ottoman Empire and of Spain do hereby commit in writing to their immense trust and respect for each other. Their friendship knows no bounds, and is unrivaled in the world. May the Great Spirits of the World, bless and preserve the Great People of these two Superior Civilizations. Furthermore, Mano a Mano, the Great Leaders, Trip and Togas, do set an example to all their people, and hail each other as loyal and supportive friends by signing this Alliance. I. This document will expire in 20 game turns from its effective time if it is not reaffirmed for another 20 turns by both nations. II. The Ottomans and the Spanish do hereby agree to never declare war on or invade the other in a hostile manner. III. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree to never ally, plot, conspire, assist, etc., with other Civilizations against the other in a hostile manner. IV. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that any defensive war initiated by another aggressive civilization is to trigger the Alliance, and the non-warring Ally agrees to assist the warring Ally in their defense in a reasonable and immediate manner. V. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that any aggressive war started by one of the them is not a trigger to the Alliance. Any such aggressive war alliance would need to be in a separate treaty. VI. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that each Ally in this Alliance is entitled to keep any Spoils of War it may obtain. VII. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree not to invade a known ally of one of the Allies to this Alliance. VIII. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that any violation of this agreement by either Ally will null and void the Alliance. IX. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that this Alliance will remain a secret from other civilizations so as to not frighten them and convince them to ally against us. Should one of the parties wish to reveal the Alliance, they must first seek permission of the other Ally. This is the Word of the Ottomans and Spanish and it is their Law. Long live the Great Civilizations of the Ottomans and Spanish and let no man tear them asunder. ********************** Viva Imperio Del Otomano Viva España Your humble servant, jdjdjd - of España Ambassador to Imperio Del Otomano

What do you guys think?

	09-01-2003 09:28									#2
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Looks good except I want to calrify III. before signing my name under it. Just in case, there's misinterpretation of words by us and them.

We might want to break out a little bit of technicality on them to show them we are concerned with some loopholes that may occur with this one, but at the same time dont look so picky about it. We can say like, "According to statement III, just what kind of deal with other civ constitutes assiting, plotting etc? What defined as hostile manner? Hostile intention to RP or all teams? (which would mean alliance is null in case we plot with GoW to attack NDE or something like that)

Maybe I'm looking into it too much, RP is great team and all. But Togas is a lawyer. I doubt they will intentionally leave openings for future.... but just in case. At least lets let them know that agreement isnt 100% clear. If we at least say something like, "lets try to not complicate this too much, and clarify few points" ow then they will look bad later if they attempt to worm out of the agreement thru such trivial technical matters.

	09-01-2003 18:14									#3
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It should be a permanent agreement that expires 20 turns after one country cancels it. Makes things much more easy.

	09-01-2003 18:40									#4
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III should read against either of the alliance parties. Parties meaning the Ottomans and Spain.

By agreeing not to invade each other in a hostile manner, does this exclude scouting? Is it only hostile if we attack a Spanish unit/improvement?

We should build an embassy with them and set up a right of passage agreement.

	12-01-2003 01:30									#5
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As long as we have a get out clause.. and can leave the alliance quite quickly , if RP become lying, warmongering people who we dislike, or if they become too powerful and take all the land.

Talking about RP's clause IX:
GoW seemed to know of our alliance plans, maybe RP didn't mean to give the info away, but if our spies find evidence RP told of the alliance, we could ask for compensation from them.. we need to tell them our complaints at least. Mitchell of RP and maybe some others aren't convinced of our alliance I think, it would be useful to have a joint war against some other civ(s) or some other way for usto build trust.

I suggest we let them make an embassy in our city first, then they will have to pay for it, and we will get an embassy for 'free' . If they don't do this we can see if we can afford it. It dosen't matter who does the embassy, you just get a cheap look at the enemies capital, which won't show much early on.
We could split the cost for embassies with them, and share capital city info. :doitnow:

When is this RP meeting taking place?

	16-01-2003 14:02									#6
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Did we sign this or not?

	16-01-2003 18:37									#7
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Good question...Trip?

	17-01-2003 00:33									#8
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We are going to finalize it.

	17-01-2003 00:39									#9
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This was sent to Roleplay:

quote: Greetings, Togas, Despot of España ! Let me introduce myself: I am BigFurryMonster, Minister of the Interior and Trade of Lux Invicta under President Trip. Trip has sent me to you with a special mission, which is threefold: 1) To say 'Hello'! to you and your fellow Citizens; 2) To finalize the Alliance proposal written by jdjdjd of España; 3) To open up vast trade possibilities. Ad 1) Hello! Ad 2) We have some minor comments on jdjdjd's proposal. For the rest, we agree to an Alliance! Ad 3) We see a trade possibility opening up in the near future (10 turns or so), and wish to make arrangements for 'Branching', which is what we call dividing up the tech tree between our two Civs and thus improving research capabilities. We'd like to talk further on 2) and 3) = though we may also start with 1) = in a chat of some sort. I can be reached on ICQ (64070272), MSN (msn@rutgermooy.net) or we may meet on mIRC. Please let me know which option(s) you prefer. Greetings from the North, BigFurryMonster Minister of the Interior and Trade of Lux Invicta.

	17-01-2003 00:56									#10
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The answer:

quote: It's good to hear from you. I have forwarded on your PM to my ambassador jdjdjd who handles the "details" of arrangements between my country and yours, and who I have the utmost faith in. I would like to say that I am hopeful that we can get this alliance signed and I would be happy to split up our research paths so that we may research different technologies and trade them, thereby doubling each of our nations' research efforts. I will be able to chat on mIRC during my lunch break shortly. I could possibly chat later this evening, PST. I'll drop into the Apolyton channel when I'm free if you'd like to chat informally. --Togas

	17-01-2003 01:25									#11
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Sounds good!

	17-01-2003 02:40									#12
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I had a conversation with Togas tonight. The following was agreed:


* We formalized the Alliance. Regarding III: we agree not to do 'hostile' things to each other, whether or not in co-operation with a third party. 'Hostile' is anything that might cause irritation or raise issues. Togas said he had no problem with scouts. Regarding IX: RP did =not= tell anyone of the Alliance. We agreed to keep it a secret, to avoid scaring and antagonizing other Civs.

* We have a trade deal: when trade Horseback Riding (which we will get from GoW) for Writing. Togas estimated that they have this in about 12 turns. Since HBR costs 5 and Writing costs 8, this is not a bad deal for us (especially since we got HBR from GoW).

* I told him that we go for Mysticism after that. They will probably go for MapMaking. This might become a trade, though we need to balance it out. So, let's get Mysticism from Vox!

* We agreed to always try to research different things.

* We extended the non-scouting agreement.



Furthermore, they wonder whether we or ND will settle the grasslands that are south of the mountains south of Invictus. I told him that ND will probably be going there. They are curious to the lands to our North and East.

	17-01-2003 02:46									#13
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This is the complete conversation:

quote: [21:55] Hello! [21:55] greetings [21:56] Do you have some time to discuss the plan(s)? [21:56] I have a little time right now [21:56] Good [21:56] See? I started with 1) Hello! [21:56] Now 2) : [21:56] The Alliance you wrote [21:56] good? [21:56] We agree on an Alliance, though there was 1 point of confusion [21:57] which point? [21:57] III [21:57] Some of our citizens asked what was meant by this [21:57] Let me go take a look at it and see which point thatis. [21:59] It's just clarification. The main question is what is meant by 'hostile' [22:00] check: are you still there? I got disconnected [22:00] gotcha [22:00] I'll retype it in this window... hold on [22:01] I now have a '2' after my name [22:01] Basically saying we're not going to plot and scheme against each other with other teams [22:01] we'll be straight up with each other, no go behind the backs of the other team to make secret deals or undermine the alliance [22:01] THe last thing I got from you was 'let me go take a look' [22:01] OK [22:01] The question was what was meant by "hostile" [22:02] E.g.: does it include scouting? [22:02] a mannor that could cause hostilities, agression, sabatage, etc. [22:02] but scouting is relatively peaceful. I don't think that would be hostile [22:03] Unless the other team specifically objects, I would say [22:03] Would that be acceptable? [22:03] I wouldn't object if you wanted to make a scouting agreement with another team [22:03] OK. I think we can work this out [22:04] Another point: [22:04] IX [22:04] Word has it that GoW knows of this Alliance [22:04] Why would they know? We definately didn't tell them anything [22:04] We sure did not tell them and some people got concerned [22:04] Hmm. [22:04] We want to keep this a secret so that they don't ally with ND to counter us [22:04] Agreed [22:05] What are your thoughts on ND, anyway? [22:05] they don't talk much. We hope to keep the peace with them. Live and let live, you know? [22:05] but if they start settling in our land, we're going to have issues. [22:06] OK. They are quite close to us, which causes some irritation [22:06] do you guys know the mountain range with the gems in it? [22:06] Yes [22:06] We call that Range "Siera Brillantes" It runs almost against the Arabian Mountains (south of Neu Theben) [22:07] Cool :-) [22:07] Do you guys plan to settle south of that range? Does ND? [22:07] I think ND will have to, soon, since they are boxed in to the other sides by us and GoW [22:08] But since we are closer to it than they are we will try to hold them off [22:08] Are you guys moving to the north or east of ND? Or both? [22:09] We are north of them; east is just a bunch of hills [22:09] Let us hold the jungle border together and keep ND out of there [22:10] But: to the point! Do we agree on the Alliance? [22:10] We do not want ND to go south of the jungle. That's Spanish land. We haven't decided what to do with the valley just south of Sierra Brillantes [22:10] * BigFurryMonster2 likes to be to the point [22:10] We agree on the alliance [22:10] Good! Let us celebrate! [22:10] Well - after this meeting that is [22:10] ;-) [22:10] [22:10] Now I come to 3) : [22:11] Possible Trades [22:11] What do we have now? Let's see [22:11] Alphabet + 25 for Iron Working, isn't it ? [22:11] yep [22:12] May I ask what you are researching? We can combine forces then [22:12] we're working on Writing. Then plan to go to mapmaking next [22:13] Do you guys have Horseback Riding yet? We nearly have that one [22:13] not yet. We'll skip that and trade you for it later. [22:13] If you don't, I see a trade [22:14] Great [22:14] after that, where are you guys going? [22:14] Let me see... [22:14] * BigFurryMonster2 opens the Great Book of Knowledge [22:14] I think Mysticism, probably [22:15] working up to Monarchy? [22:15] Yep [22:15] not a bad idea [22:16] You might want to try for Maths, then? [22:16] I was hoping we could split up the Writing tech tree ... there's a lot to research there [22:16] I have that same hope here [22:16] we might go that route. I want currency, but literature is also a big plus [22:16] True [22:17] Let's work something out here: [22:17] We go for Horseback Riding & Mysticism, you get Writing and something else after that [22:17] let's exchange Writing for Horseback Riding when we get them [22:17] All right. [22:18] My guess is that we have that in about 8 turns [22:18] Might be a little more [22:18] After that let's try to make sure we always research different things [22:18] When do you have Writing? [22:18] 18 turns, but less once we get our next city [22:18] probably will be 12 turns [22:18] Good [22:19] That is agreed then BigFurryMonster2 toasts to a fruitful Alliance [22:19] I can't promise much after writing because I don't know who will offer to trade us what. But I can pretty much go along with writing for horseback riding. It should balance out the IW trade a bit [22:20] It is how you said it: always research different things [22:20] BUT, I do want us to always TRY to research different things. If we can work it out, let's try to [22:20] That is the main goal of the non-military part of this [22:20] it's to our benefit to do so [22:20] Yes [22:21] I will put this in a PM and send it to you and jdjdjd [22:21] ...and to Trip [22:22] Good deal [22:22] Maybe - if you get MapMaking, we can exchange Maps later [22:22] to strenghen our knowledge of things [22:22] good plan [22:22] But that is for later [22:23] we're very curious about the northern lands and how you guys will share them with GoW and ND [22:23] but we'll save that for Mapmaking time [22:23] Allright [22:24] When we have Mysticism and you have MapMaking - maybe that is a second trade [22:24] that might work. Not sure if it's entirely even, though. I'll ask my guys to see what they think. [22:25] If it is not, we'll make sure to balance it out! [22:25] shouldn't be a problem. [22:25] The main thing is to get trade going [22:25] agreed [22:25] Did you and Trip speak (earlier) about scouting policies? [22:26] yeah, we both agreed to not scout each other's lands [22:26] OK. That is what I thought was agreed [22:26] Much more efficient, this way [22:26] I think so too. [22:27] Q: I am in mIRC. How do I log this? (to record things for the deal) [22:27] Not entirely sure. I've cut & pasted discussions before, but it's a pain [22:27] have to do it screen by screen. [22:27] I can't even do a screen [22:28] I just grabbed all the text, hit Cntl-c, then went to next screen, paste ... repeat [22:28] best plan is to just write down a paraphrase of our agreements and then PM it to jdjdjd [22:28] I will [22:28] I'll have him write back to verify [22:29] I'm at the office right now, and I'd better get back to work before someone notices I'm chatting [22:30] I'll go to bed now [22:30] It's 22:30 here [22:30] Look forward to your PM ... send it to jdjdjd and myself. [22:30] Allright [22:30] I'd better head off. Have a good night. Good to chat with you [22:30] Bye!

	17-01-2003 02:57									#14
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This is the PM I sent to Togas, jdjdjd and Trip:

quote: Togas (Espana) and BigFurryMonster (Lux Invicta) agreed on the following deals: * The Alliance, as written down by jdjdjd (see below), was agreed upon. Special attention was paid to the fact that both parties will keep it secret from other Civs. * We will trade Horseback Riding (from LI) for Writing (from RP). This will be done as soon as RP has obtained Writing, which will be in about 12 turns from now. * LI will research Mysticism; RP will research another tech (possibly MapMaking) for those to be traded. * We will always try to research different techs. * We will not scout each other's territories (as agreed by Trip and Togas earlier). ------------------------------------- The Alliance:

(etc.)

	17-01-2003 04:15									#15
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One question: what about the lands to our south? Why did you tell him they would probably be settled by ND?

	17-01-2003 21:27									#16
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To make sure they will build up some defense against ND. Driving a wedge between them seems to be to our advantage.

	18-01-2003 05:06									#17
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There seems to be a precarious balance on our continent.

GoW to the north, pinned in like us. ND is scrunched against the coast with poor land, us to the east, GoW to the north, and a forceful Roleplay to the south.

We have much to fear from each of them long-term. ND will need somewhere to expand, as will GoW. Roleplay will become a superpower before too long I predict. They have an entire half continent to themselves.

We must be wary of all of our neighbors...

	18-01-2003 15:17									#18
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I got this message from jdjdjd. They want to keep more options open. I am afraid they spoke with GoW a bit too much. Let's keep a close eye on both.

Any ideas for a response?

quote: Minister BigFurryMonster, I have spoken to our Grand and Illustrious Despot, Togas, and he wishes that I clarify the following aspects of the agreement. Note: those as[ects not mentioned are agreeable to us. quote: * We will trade Horseback Riding (from LI) for Writing (from RP). This will be done as soon as RP has obtained Writing, which will be in about 12 turns from now. While we agree this is a good idea, we can not commit definitively until we have Writing. quote: * LI will research Mysticism; RP will research another tech (possibly MapMaking) for those to be traded. We will research Mapmaking, and LI Mysticism. We will have to clarify this trade when research is complete, as many variables can come into play. ____ Due to the many variables that will come into play over the turns leading to the discovery of all the techs involved in both aspects of the agreement, we feel neither LI or RP can commit to the trades mentioned specifically. We do want to maintain an open dialog with regards to tech trading and other matters with LI, and will always seek such trades once the techs are in hand. And should all things remain equal, the trades mentioned are ones we would complete with you. However, specific details should be worked out once the techs are available. I hope this is agreeable to you. Please let me know if you have any questions or have anything further to discuss. Thank you for your trustworthyness and friendship. Your humble servant, jdjdjd - Ambassador to The Ottoman Empire from España

	18-01-2003 17:51									#19
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That meetings seems to have gone very well. As far as tech trades. We do have to be open to variables, with NDE as a wild card in this and the slim (but possibility nonetheless) that there are other civs on this landmass. We dont want the entire trading plan to fall apart due to one team getting one tech from another source.

The two things we really have to watch for: NDE researching techs and trading them first, and GoW getting techs from meeting another civ on their continent.

	18-01-2003 22:59									#20
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I think we may have been a little naive.

From talks with Ghengis Farb, I know for a fact that Roleplay has given away knowledge of our alliance. GF has stated that RP has "tried to pressure us with by claiming they can bring Lux into a war against us", and that they should beware because "Roleplay says that Lux will back them up no matter what". Obviously, GF couldn't simply be making this up (how could he?), which means that RP must have given the info away. Some ally eh?

Roleplay has full knowledge of Vox, their location and their situation, even including their feelings towards GS. I saw Togas and Jon Miller talking last night about it.

I think we can trust Vox and GoW right now. ND will be an enemy, and RP is slipping in my mind...

	19-01-2003 06:35									#21
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There are probably some huts arounnd still, which may give techs. If someone gets some galley ships, then may be able to find some islandswith huts etc. Trading maps would be useful anyhow, but we seem to have more important things to do first.

I wouldn't trust Ghengis or GoW too much.

	19-01-2003 20:01									#22
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Yes. The fact that RP gave away knowledge of the alliance is more troubling now. It clearly like they are trying to drive a wedge between us and GoW. With the ultimate goal of causing a war between us and GoW, quite possibly with NDE joining against us. Meanwhile, they could then decide just to let us fight while they build their southern empire. End result: we are fighting a 2v1 war with us being the one, while RP builds enough cities and military to prevent anyone else on the continent from attacking them later. Bad Bad Bad. The fact that they are unwilling to commit to another tech deal until the current tech trade is researched also tells me they are possibily engaging is other tech deals like us.

	21-01-2003 13:29									#23
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Fortunately, we also have good contacts with GoW, so the situation you describe need not happen.

	21-01-2003 18:35									#24
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I have no problem with the supposed leak of our alliance. This will bolster our position and give our potential enemies pause.

Also, who cares if they are trading tech...wouldn't we do the same thing?

GoW and RP no doubt have other alliances.

	21-01-2003 19:46									#25
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If they trade techs with each other (a perfectly natural thing to do, unless you've already promised a tech to someone else) we miss out. So - we care about it.

	21-01-2003 21:06									#26
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Right...but who are we to say they can't do it? They have an agenda with as much right as ours. As long as they will still trade the techs we want with us, then does it matter? Did we have a ligitimate contract with them that forbade them from tech trading? It's our inability to explore and find new techs that is holding us back. We should all realize why we are pinned in. It's a geo-political reality that we have to deal with.

It's also a ligitimate reason for War-mongering aka self preservation.

	22-01-2003 02:43									#27
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It does matter. The more trades we can make ourselves, the more profit we make. Either by trades like the one we have with Vox (gold per turn), or by not needing to spend money on science (like we have now). Every trade between two other civs diminishes this advantage.

We cannot, of course, forbid any civ to trade with third parties, no matter the contract we have. We can, however, keep a closer contact with every civ that others do. In this way, we'll appear more friendly and the civs will be more likely to trade with us.

We do not have an inability to explore, IMHO. The continent is not bigger than it is. We don't have ships yet.

We also do not have an inability to find new techs. True, our science rate is 0%, but we're in a very clever trade program that gives us the techs no slower than we could have researched them.

Are we pinned in? Yes, maybe. This is due to geographic reasons, IMHO.

Conflict will erupt, since other civs also feel they are pinned in. I say - as soon as we have settled our land - build up the military and wait for Sipahi units to appear.

I hope I have understood you correctly. Please share your views on this!

	22-01-2003 05:43									#28
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Maybe we can make a deal with RP or others relating to who to trade with or not.
We could say if they trade techs with NDE or our enemies we won't trade with them anymore, and may look upon this as a hostile agressive act.
In some cases it might be good to give others techs early to get on their good side, this stops others trading techs with them , which makes them dislike us and they 3rd party gets more from our 'friends'

	22-01-2003 12:11									#29
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I will put up a new thread for the trading with RP.