15-12-2000 01:19									#1
	A couple MP questions for y'alls... Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Two thingies:

1) Every time I try to intercede diplomatically with an AI faction that's at war with another human faction, the AI says, "I have recieved payment for this war and I must see it out" (or whatever the exact text is. I'm getting suspicious that this is either a bug, or the designers' way of keeping humans from playing good cop/bad cop with the AI--as in, 'okay, this turn YOU take one of his bases and I'LL get him to call of his Vendetta against you.' Anybody know anything about this?

2) Somebody a long whilst back posted that the AI seems to play a better builder game if you change its faction file so that it has all four priorities (explore, build, conquer, discover) instead of just the one or two that suit its character. I'd like to try this, but I'm worried it might screw up my MP games. Does anyone know if the save games keep their own record of the faction states? Or do the games re-load the faction files from each person's hard drive each time?

	15-12-2000 02:06									#2
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HP -- I can only answer based on one MP game where the Hive was Pacted with Morgan, who was a human player, and also my Pact mate. Morgan couldn't call off the AI aginst me for whatever reason. So the Hive and I were in a state of vendetta for most of the game, though I don't think we ever attacked one another because the vendetta was called because I wouldn't get out of his territory. Sorry for the extranious informantion.

	15-12-2000 02:35									#3
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WE, don't mention that game, your post brings back painful memories...

HP:
1) Your second explanation is the most likely - I have never seen the AI accept that proposal against a human player before. It is probably just as well - it would be unfair exploitation of the AI's limited capabilities for exactly the reason you have described....

2) I'm not sure, to be honest - it would be better, IMO, to keep a backup file and interchange between the two, IMO. Well, it would be safer, at least....

	15-12-2000 03:17									#4
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The faction file is read when a game is created and becomes part of the game. If you change a faction file after you start a game it will NOT be changed when you load an old game.

So altering it will not screw up your current games.

	15-12-2000 03:45									#5
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It IS possible to get the AI factions to call off vendettas against human players, so the reply you get must be for other reasons.

Note that if you persuade an AI to end the vendetta, the two factions will immediately get a treaty regardless of the wishes of the human player. Therefore I think you should only be allowed to ask it if the player you are asking on behalf of has agreed (otherwise he may have to take a reputation hit for breaking a treaty he never signed).

	15-12-2000 05:33									#6
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On the vendetta question, I seem to remember Vel saying that the AI is extremely honourable about following a vendetta when it has been paid to do so.

Once the AI accepts payment, it will remain at vendetta with the target faction for the whole of the game. This is even true for submissives - I remember several games where I could not end the vendetta between two factions who were submissive to me because one of the factions had accepted payment.

The only situation I haven't encountered is one where I have paid the AI and then I subsequently ask them to call it off ... I suspect they'd still refuse

	15-12-2000 05:58									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Mis, I have been in that exact situation, and they'll never quit. But if an AI faction accepts money to fight a human, maybe things are different? Because I've seen these factions, that claim to have been paid to fight one of my buddies, turn around and accept peace with him a couple turns later. So either the message about having been paid is erroneous, or there are special rules for fighting us fleshy types.

Thanks, Garth, for the info.
[This message has been edited by Helium Pond (edited December 14, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Helium Pond (edited December 15, 2000).]

	15-12-2000 09:32									#8
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Just my humble opinion...

There should never be AI players in a MP game. It is extremely unbalancing, and can ruin the human to human challenge.

	15-12-2000 10:10									#9
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That's interesting HP - I haven't seen the AI behave this way when a human player is involved. I hope you're wrong about this though - I've just paid rather a handsome sum to Sven to attack a human opponent in a PBEM

In the game to which WE refers (sorry Mark13 ) Morgan (human) paid the Hive (AI) to attack the Believers (human). The Hive also independently declared vendetta on me early in the game. Towards the end of the game, they requested a treaty with me - but consistently refused to make peace with the Believers. I got the "I've been paid" message every time I tried.

Mind you, it's possible that the AI might simply lie about the payment. Sven is always telling me that he has no tech to share in the early game, when the no-good swine has mobility and flex tucked away in his databanks ...

	16-12-2000 05:18									#10
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Personally, I think having AI factions in MP adds a lot of depth to the game. It allows you to use your AI-manipulating skills honed in SP in the MP arena. Far from being unbalancing, AI factions can add to the balance. They strongly favor the underdog, so weak factions are more likely to get treaties and pacts and to get tech trades. If you are really far behind an AI faction, they will even give you tech for free.

The "I have been paid" claim of the AI is pure libel. They declare vendetta of their own accord and them claim to have been paid.


------------------
Creator of the Ultimate Builder Map, based on the Huge Map of Planet

	16-12-2000 07:07									#11
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I like having AI factions in multiplayer. I agree that it can be unbalancing, sure. But that's all part of it.

	16-12-2000 11:56									#12
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Yeah!
I also love box matches, when they add a kangaroo in the ring!!!

	16-12-2000 12:22									#13
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A kangaroo in the ring? Cool!

	18-12-2000 12:51									#14
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I think the AI's in MP can be unbalancing and also unbalancing. Who's Zak without the Colonel? Who Yang without Lal? Who's Morgan without Deidere?

	19-12-2000 03:47									#16
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I love AI factions in MP games. Dilithiumdad raised the key point that it favors the underdog.

If you are playing a 1v1 game with no AI's there is very little the 2nd place can do to catch up. But with AI's they will often trade tech with the 2nd place human, but not the first place player. Plus, momentum factions really suck if there is no prey in the game