09-01-2003 21:15									#1
	A history of scenario making? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Hey everybody. I don't know if this exists, but I am interested in compiling a history of scenario-making for Civ2.
I guess the first step would be making some outlines for the history Chronological/thematical/site, I don't know.
Next step would be compiling a list of srouces: interviews and looking though archives. (Of course, playing, too )

Would this sound like SLM material? Anybody else interested?

The first obvious outline would be based on the chronology of Civ 2 releases:
- Original
- CiC
- FW
- MP
- MPGE

And I guess while I'm at it, I should also include ToT.

EDIT - And while I'm at it, I might want to spell "history" instead of "hisotry".

	09-01-2003 22:38									#2
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What a fabulous idea. Would you consider using SLM as a vehicle to research and publish?

	09-01-2003 23:36									#3
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It would be my privilege.

When are submissions for SLM magazine due?

Continuing on the chronology, when did ToT come out in relation to the chronology I posted? What about other Civ2 related releases (such as the scenario compilation)?

	09-01-2003 23:40									#4
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Top idea!

As for a timeline, how about Pre-Nemo, Nemo and Post-Nemo ? (Guess who my fave designer is )

	10-01-2003 00:02									#5
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Controversial subject. The influence of Nemo is one of the things an informed history could help settle. (Maybe I could even convince him to respond to an interview...)

	10-01-2003 00:18									#6
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Well, we publish every 2 months, the next one is due at the end of January. But I assume this is a fairly long term project, so why don't we use the next issue to solicit input?

ToT was the final version of Civ2, launched in the looming shadow of Civ3.

BTW, I think that Harlan Thompson's influence far exceeded that of Nemo's.

	10-01-2003 00:25									#7
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shadow of civ3? I wasn't aware civ3 cast a shadow...

	10-01-2003 01:19									#8
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Wayback Machine
Page with Outdated Links to wayback to.
A different set of links.

Example:
Modern Fascist Civ2 Site
Jan 16, 1999 Fascist Civ2 Site

Apr 21, 1998 Ultimate Civ2 Site


Dec 05, 1998 Tour Eiffel
Jan 24, 2002 Tour Eiffel

It seems as thought you can't travel to early enough to see working versions of some great sites of yesteryear like Allard's, Glyphweb, or Rocky Mountain. Actually, Allard's site is still there presently, but it's missing an index that would tie it all together.

LeoWWI was released in July of 1998.
The MooJr Modpack was released in November of 1999.
Roman Riots was released in March of 2000.
Fictional Americas was released in May of 2000.
7of9 was released in November of 2000.
Imperial Ambition was released in December of 2000.
Renovated 1650 was released in December of 2001.
Dual Europe was released in April of 2002.

Last edited by St Leo on 10-01-2003 at 03:04

	10-01-2003 04:04									#9
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Great idea.

	10-01-2003 04:05									#10
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Wow, that's a brilliant idea

	10-01-2003 08:52									#11
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quote: Originally posted by DarthVeda shadow of civ3? I wasn't aware civ3 cast a shadow...

Civ3 consists solely of a shadow and has no other form of substance whatsoever.

quote: The MooJr Modpack was released in November of 1999. 7of9 was released in November of 2000.

I seem to have missed those two. Are they still around anywhere perchance?

	10-01-2003 18:43									#12
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would be good to capture the scenarios which introduced new concepts or tools to the community.

like

X-com combined more than one tile to form pictures.
Underdark used salves to represent pollution.

Fractional movement values? - was it imperium romanum
Quest based scenario - was it spartacus?
Land based carrier - Lord of the Rings?

Also monumental research like the barbarian paper by Will Keenan.

Last edited by kobayashi on 10-01-2003 at 18:49

	10-01-2003 23:46									#13
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Of course the development from having multiple files to be manually switched and delevented, to single batch programs that set up the game for one civ only (having several of those in the scenario's folder), then having one single batch program allows everything to be tidy and concise. I suppose the latest 'discovery' in the batch realm would be from Marko Urm and his discovery that batches will run delevent on .net files too... perfect for PBEM specific scenarios.

-FMK.

Last edited by Field Marshal Klesh on 10-01-2003 at 23:52

	11-01-2003 02:32									#14
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Perhaps it should be re-thought as a "technological development" outline. Initially I am not too interested as to who came up with what, but rather with which developments made the most impact on scenario-making.

I would propose then, that the most important "technological" changes, in no particular order, were:8
Events (i understand that this came in two stages, right?) and Multi-playing
Any other ideas?

Then my outline would be:
1. Civ2 original
2. CiC and FW (event capacity)
3. MP and MGE (multiplaying)
4. ToT?
(within these, we could identify landmarks, I suppose, like Harlan Thompson's LOTR, Nemo's Red Front, etc.)

Other questions:

What about hex-editing? Has this been very influential?

Also, it feels that alot of scenario making is influenced by forums rather than being solo work. I know of Civfanatics and Apolyton which are still alive (not to mention the german site), but I realize there was/are other influential forums...

	11-01-2003 03:55									#15
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How far back do you want to go? I think Jeff Head made some of the first scenarios which had new graphics and sounds. You can still find them in the Best of the Net Collection included in MGE.

	11-01-2003 04:06									#16
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No Leon! Eso no! Es traicion!

	11-01-2003 04:26									#17
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Tecumseh: As far back as scenario making goes. Where can I find the best of the net collection?

Elaw: ¿Traición por qué, ché? También tendrás un lugar en la historia, si te sigues portando mal con esos trollazos que me hacen

	11-01-2003 06:58									#18
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Yo digo al spanish site. Estamos en guerra con la SLeague.

	11-01-2003 08:23									#19
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Where can I find the best of the net collection?

In the /bestonet and /bestnet2 folders of your Civ2 installation, perhaps?

Was there actually a non-gold MP edition?

	11-01-2003 09:02									#20
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quote: Was there actually a non-gold MP edition?

Yes - I forked out $10 for it last year and it didn't work very well. Basically it seemed to be Civ 2 with the MP code enabled. I had to add the FW and CIC updates to it to get it to run scenarios.

	11-01-2003 10:50									#21
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I did not know such a thing existed

	11-01-2003 21:48									#22
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Jay Bee's The Quest For Eldorado, Mar 16, 1999 is the first 'Quest scenario', no unit builds were needed.

	11-01-2003 22:06									#23
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Yeah, Spartacus was the first to introduce file-switching. IIRC, you still had to build stuff.

	11-01-2003 22:40									#24
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Chris, are you sure that the Sword of Shannara didn't come out before that?

	12-01-2003 02:26									#25
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Jay has told me a few times he was the first, and I have always accepted that.

I can't say for certain though, not 100%.

I think all scenarios should list when their made (many do, it would be nice if they all did).

	12-01-2003 05:47									#26
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Well, those sticky "who-did-it-first" topics are one of the things I hope to shed light on...

But like I said, first things first.

Let's assume that a certain Mr. X does have MGE but not the MGE disk. Hence Mr. X does not have the best of the net scenarios. Where would Mr. X find said scenarios?

	12-01-2003 06:46									#27
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On his FW and CiC disks.

You are extremely unlikely to find these scenarios because most people would pay to not play them.

	12-01-2003 18:54									#28
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Don't be so harsh St Leo, some were... uhm... decent?

I'm with ElAwr, talk to your people first, León (hint, hint)


PS. Elodorado came out well before Shannara, at around the same time as Spartacus. Mine was inspired by Slash & Burn, best scenario ever. Beta versions of Eldorado appeared in the Fall of 98.

Last edited by Jay Bee on 12-01-2003 at 19:00

	12-01-2003 19:48									#29
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There you go, from the scenario creator's own words.

Something I would like to see is a list, with creator name by time period of as many scenarios as we can find.

I find that I have a number of scenarios people never heard of, from obscure sites, or dead ones, things like that.
And I don't mean crummy stuff with no new units, I hate that myself.

	12-01-2003 22:32									#30
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quote: Mine was inspired by Slash & Burn, best scenario ever.

Third best. "The Mongols" and "Alba de América" are better.

As for the "quest" idea, I don't want to claim that Alex the Magnificent invented it. I'd be ready to appreciate the fact that he did, but I could imagine someone used something similar before. But he was the first to use this wide-spreadidly (horrible English!); "Spartacus" didn't introduce this, he used quests in his "Pelopponesian War" and "Quebec" scenarios, well before "Spartacus".

quote: Something I would like to see is a list, with creator name by time period of as many scenarios as we can find.

If this helps you...
It's all I could gather. I stopped keeping track of it very early, and I lost some of my scenarios in a hard drive collapse (and, of course, I can't find the CD I burned all that on...), some dates are hypothetical, based on the creation of zip files and last modifications, but they harmonize with my memory. I don't know exactly when Sons of Heracles and Fire and Roses were released, but since that's not so long ago, it's still possible to find out. Alexander the Great versions 1.0 and 2.0 and the 3d Punic War are impossible for me... perhaps Jay Bee kept track, as he was the one who published them first. I can tell the month when The Holy Wars came out if the site it was on still exists, but that's only for the German version. Again, if anyone knows that for the English one, it'll be Jay Bee. Info on The Mughals and Iran is entirely lost (unless...).

Quest For Asia: The Persian Empire-March 13 1999
Artaxerxes-July 28(ish) 1999
Pharaoh-July 24 2001
Shaibani version 1.2-August 13 2001 (that's what the zip file says, at least)
Alexander the Great version 3.0-September 20th 2001
Darius the Great version 1.0-May 19th 1999
Darius the Great version 2.0-December 11th 1999
Darius the Great version 2.1-December 19th 1999
Darius the Great version 2.2-? (should be possible to find out though)