12-01-2003 00:40									#31
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Could someone tell the NK's not to get so excited. They can just wait for their turn. One at a time now.

	12-01-2003 00:55									#32
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Latest updates:

1. North Korea apparently plans on resuming its missile tests soon, so Japan can expect a few more "tests" to go arcing over their home islands.

2. Apparently progress is being made in New Mexico with those "unofficial" talks involving NM's governor and an NK rep who are more than diplomatic friends (IOW, they're personal friends).

Gatekeeper

	12-01-2003 01:13									#33
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McCain, advocating the big balls approach...

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conte...02/093wsmmh.asp

	12-01-2003 12:40									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper 2. Apparently progress is being made in New Mexico with those "unofficial" talks involving NM's governor and an NK rep who are more than diplomatic friends (IOW, they're personal friends). Gatekeeper

I haven't kept up with this. Is Richardson acting with the explicit (or tacit) approval of the Administration? Or is he going off on his own in a Ramsey Clark -like manner. If the latter, did the Democrats learn noithing from the last election. (Even if the Administration is flawed, breaking ranks and trying to have an independant foreign policy won't work. Not from the Governor of New Mexico slot...)

	12-01-2003 13:15									#35
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GP:

Richardson *isn't* going off on his own. It's not official, but it's believed that he has the "wink" from the Bush Jr. administration. It's a way for them to save face, I imagine, while actually seeing if talks might produce something other than war.

Gatekeeper

	12-01-2003 15:03									#36
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Oh...as long as he's not off on independant ops that is cool.

	12-01-2003 18:38									#37
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quote: The North Koreans are so rock stupid that even the Chinese and Soviets laugh at them. During the Peublo captivity, several servicemen gave the Koreans the finger in a photo released to the world. The Koreans asked what the finger meant and the US servicemen said it was a goodwill gesture...

...and when US attacked against Iraq in Gulf War, Iraqi propaganda said that
Bart Simpson was making love with their wives... Sheesh... that stuff grows lame pretty quickly.

	13-01-2003 19:16									#38
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quote: Originally posted by DanS McCain, advocating the big balls approach... http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conte...02/093wsmmh.asp

Actually, he does have a point...

Of course, in a somewhat more "perfect" world, the UN would handle all such matters - and actually resolve them.

The problem with the UN is that most of the time, most countries are just looking after their own interests, as opposed to serving the UN as such. I guess they're allowed, and it was supposed to make the system as a whole fair on everybody, but it tends not to work too well when 5 nations have permanent veto power and the rest are busy bickering amongst themselves and/or against the five big ones...

	13-01-2003 19:25									#39
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quote: Originally posted by GP Could someone tell the NK's not to get so excited. They can just wait for their turn. One at a time now.

I'd be really surprised to actually see the US go into NK, sailor. That might "aggravate" the Chinese, and even more so the Japanese who would set the record as being the only country to ever be nuked by two different enemies in two different wars...

	13-01-2003 19:47									#40
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Before. The program was restarted in the late 90's in violation of a bilateral (IIRC?) agreement they signed with us in the early 90's. quote: 1)When did US aid stop and 2)why was it stopped? 1) November 2002. 2) It was suspended as a result collapse of the agreement with NK. Fuel oil and food shipment were part of that agreement. The Bush administration has continued with the food shipments.

So you're saying that NK had been ignoring their end of the agreement for a couple of years while the US continued to hold up its end of the bargain until November of last year? What happened at that time to prompt the US into finally putting a stop to the deal? If NK was already ignoring their end of the agreement what was the point of announcing it in the past few weeks?

	13-01-2003 19:50									#41
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quote: Originally posted by GP The North Koreans are so rock stupid that even the Chinese and Soviets laugh at them. During the Peublo captivity, several servicemen gave the Koreans the finger in a photo released to the world. The Koreans asked what the finger meant and the US servicemen said it was a goodwill gesture...

Well, if it ever comes to war and the UN wins this should make the victory march through Pyongyang interesting. I mean the liberated populace instead of smiling, cheering and waving will be smiling, cheering and .........

	13-01-2003 21:31									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger I'd be really surprised to actually see the US go into NK, sailor. That might "aggravate" the Chinese, and even more so the Japanese who would set the record as being the only country to ever be nuked by two different enemies in two different wars...

I have no problem with us "not going into NK". Certainly we can't do it unless the SK's feel the need. I think a lot of the excitement about NK (especially from the left) is based on attempting to find a distraction from the impending war on Iraq. IOW, they don't agree with that action so they raise the issue of NK. (Not sure what they really expect done...cruise missiles against NK tents?) It's a red herring. They are not serious about doing anything. They just want to run and skwauk.

If we were to take some action, we would wait until after Iraq regardless. And of course, firm action against Iraq is more likely to dissaude NK (although you are right...they are wack jobs...so who knows). Certainly failure to prosecute the Iraq war will be seen as weakness by the NK.

On a more fundamental note, it will be interesting to see how this all plays out. One could imagine the region becoming more militarized with Japan and SK developing nuclear capabilities (and in effect ending the non-proliferation effect of the last 60 years in that tier 2 (i.e. non-superpower) nations of sufficient industrial level will ALL come to have nuclear weapons. I don't know if that will happen. But who knows.

	14-01-2003 03:16									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove So you're saying that NK had been ignoring their end of the agreement for a couple of years while the US continued to hold up its end of the bargain until November of last year? What happened at that time to prompt the US into finally putting a stop to the deal? If NK was already ignoring their end of the agreement what was the point of announcing it in the past few weeks?

Because the US only came up with the proof recently (at least that was my impression). They confronted the NKs at the negotiating table, the NKs told the US behind closed doors that they were continuing a covert nuclear program, the US breaks off talks.

NK denies ever admitting to having that covert nuclear program. I trust the US' word more than NK's.

	14-01-2003 03:21									#44
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quote: Originally posted by GP On a more fundamental note, it will be interesting to see how this all plays out. One could imagine the region becoming more militarized with Japan and SK developing nuclear capabilities (and in effect ending the non-proliferation effect of the last 60 years in that tier 2 (i.e. non-superpower) nations of sufficient industrial level will ALL come to have nuclear weapons. I don't know if that will happen. But who knows.

I doubt all would. Western Europe is composed entirely of tier-2 industrialised nations, and I don't think that any would really feel the need. All Western Euro countries are covered by the nuclear umbrellas of France, UK and US already, and everybody knows it.

Asia is a different story. Especially since China had a nuclear monopoly there for 40 years (at least nominally; the Indians in reality tested a bomb in '72, right?). Even Japan might begin to see this as an opportunity in addition to a danger...

	14-01-2003 03:25									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger I doubt all would. Western Europe is composed entirely of tier-2 industrialised nations, and I don't think that any would really feel the need. All Western Euro countries are covered by the nuclear umbrellas of France, UK and US already, and everybody knows it. Asia is a different story. Especially since China had a nuclear monopoly there for 40 years (at least nominally; the Indians in reality tested a bomb in '72, right?). Even Japan might begin to see this as an opportunity in addition to a danger...

Yeah, NE Asia would be more the immediate risk. As SE Asia was in the past. It will be interesting to see how this all evolves in the non-Cold War world. Obviously the ME is another area of concern and it's not inconceiveable that areas like the Balkans and Greece/Turkey could heat up. Or that if enough countries get the bomb it starts to become more fashionable for all.

	14-01-2003 03:26									#46
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I can't see the Japanese ever developing nuclear weapons. They have a special horror of them that even Kim Il Jong can't counteract.

	14-01-2003 03:29									#47
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Glah. I don't really want to think about a world in which Singapore and Indonesia are waving nuclear weapons at each other.

	14-01-2003 03:30									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove I can't see the Japanese ever developing nuclear weapons. They have a special horror of them that even Kim Il Jong can't counteract.

They probably have more a horror of nuclear weapons when the business end is pointed toward them than away from them.

	14-01-2003 14:01									#49
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Well, once proliferation becomes mostly fact instead of speculation, I bet we'll see a new race for improved anti-missile technology above and beyond the current Patriot and Arrow systems (which, I think, aren't designed to knock down nuclear-bearing ICBMs, are they?).

Gatekeeper

	14-01-2003 16:43									#50
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There is actually a big chunk of Japanese voters who would rather effectively committ suicide than use nuclear weapons.

Lead lined pants...ha ha, even the ex-pats here are hoping Bush doesn't start a war over Kim wanting some more trophies.

BTW, Kim Jong-il is a really really wierd guy according to Joong Ang-Ilbo.

He is, get this, a Bond film addict, he has them all, and loves them. He has an elite 'Joy Battalion' of concubines.
Also, he is supposedly a real Western media addict. In North Korea, where most people subsist on military style rations and home garden kimchi, Kim constantly watches multiple satellite feeds, loves the internet, etc. It's kinda funny that Kim, with his Western fascination, is actually out there visiting internet sites and watching Western talk tv all the time.

Odin....no wonder he thinks America is out to get him

	14-01-2003 18:18									#51
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I wonder if Kim has an account on 'Poly?...