11-01-2003 00:27									#1
	Marx and Star Trek Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

While reading the Economist's christmas special, I came on an article about Marx's continued life in the academic world, even after political Communism has come to a general end. As one would expect from the Economist, they espoused the view that we now know Marx's basic economic views are wrong, that Capitalism at its appex does not set the stage for the revolution and dictatorship of the proletariat. But is that true? Have we reached the end of Capitalism, the point at which we have maximized its productive capabilities? Feudalism lasted 1000 years, and there are 4000 years of history before that, and capitalism has been around only 300 at most. What about the future? which is where Star Trek comes in.

In Star Trek, one of the basic new technologies is matter-energy conversion, which makes the teleporter and the replicator possible. So lets imagine its the year 2350, and the "Home Replicator" has become a reality. Can the modern form of Capitalism survive a world in which any individual with enough capital to aquire one can create any good they demand, wthout the labor, capital, or resources of anyone else? Would this realm of near limitless energy (which one would need to make replicators) invalidate the current economic orthodoxy, or would a form of the Market remain alive, such as selling the patterns to replicate stuff? If so, how long would ownership of a pattern last? forever in the hands of one company? How could it work?

PS:
On the topic of star trek, two separate questions:
How could the Ferengi continue to use species (Latinum) as currency? Why has no unscrupolous (ie. any) Ferengi simply replicated tons of the stuff, thus making it worthless?
Does the Federation ever hold elections? We rarely ever see (even in DS9) the political, civilians leaders of this "federation", only Starfleet Officers. And I have never heard of any of the many crews talk about absentee ballots, the coming or past elections, so forth and so on: do we assume the dictatorship of the proletariat came true?

	11-01-2003 00:53									#2
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quote: How could the Ferengi continue to use species (Latinum) as currency? Why has no unscrupolous (ie. any) Ferengi simply replicated tons of the stuff, thus making it worthless?

Its worth is that fact that it cannot be replicated, which is why the ferengi like it so much.

Good post by the way, wish I had the brain capacity at the moment to answer it.

	11-01-2003 00:56									#3
	Re: Marx and Star Trek Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by GePap How could the Ferengi continue to use species (Latinum) as currency? Why has no unscrupolous (ie. any) Ferengi simply replicated tons of the stuff, thus making it worthless?

IIRC, in one of the books I've read they say that no one has figured out how replicate it yet. Supossedly it defies conventional techniques. However I expect to be corrected by one of the more geeky people on the board shortly.

quote: Does the Federation ever hold elections?

Wasn't thier a coup attempt in one of the DS9 episodes against the civilian leadership?

	11-01-2003 00:56									#4
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Yes, whenever anyone tries to replicate latinum a giant Plot Hole opens up and swallows them, and they are never seen again.

Don't try to get philosophy or political sceince from some sci-fi show. That's how we wound up with Scientology (well, OK, that was a novel).

	11-01-2003 00:57									#5
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Non-replicable? Weird....

Another question (though the main economic question is the most interesting..)
Everytime someone replicates something to drink or eat, the replicate the glasses, cups, plates etc. as well: what do they do with all these containers? Is there some way to "un-replicate" and get back some of the energy you used?

	11-01-2003 00:58									#6
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Non-replicable? Weird.... Another question (though the main economic question is the most interesting..) Everytime someone replicates something to drink or eat, the replicate the glasses, cups, plates etc. as well: what do they do with all these containers? Is there some way to "un-replicate" and get back some of the energy you used?

"Doing the dishes" involves putting the plates back in the replicator. I've seen that happen in an episode involving Cheif O'Brian and his wife Keiko.

	11-01-2003 00:59									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Andrew1999 Yes, whenever anyone tries to replicate latinum a giant Plot Hole opens up and swallows them, and they are never seen again. Don't try to get philosophy or political sceince from some sci-fi show. That's how we wound up with Scientology (well, OK, that was a novel).

I am not trying to get economics out of Trek: the question is: if at any point makind was able to have at their hands near limitless energy, and something like replicators, would modern economic theory remain valid? Can our economy be so productive, as to make the Market meanigless (and perhaps, in the end, validate Marx)

	11-01-2003 01:09									#8
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Economics is about making choices subject to resource constraints. If one resource, energy, is effectively limitless, and can be freely transformed into all other resources, then there is no resource constraint, and no need for economics. But can replicators be used to create, say, a limitless supply of each person's time? If not, scarcity still exists and economics still has something to say.

	11-01-2003 01:14									#9
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There is a lot about Star Trek that makes no sense if one assumes that there is no money. Why, for example, are people working to provide services for others?

GePap, as to the continued study of Marxism in academia, etc., I don't think the issue is based solely on the economics of it. I think Marxism offers a vision of absolute equality that many find attractive even if one knows that equality is achieved in a state of poverty. After all, this is exactly what Christ seemed to be teaching and actually practicing.

So Star Trek offers a magical way to have Marxist equality without poverty. An attractive world to many.

	11-01-2003 01:15									#10
	Re: Re: Marx and Star Trek Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Wasn't thier a coup attempt in one of the DS9 episodes against the civilian leadership?

IIRC, before the Dominion War, a high-ranking Starfleet officer tried to overthrow the civilian leadership of the Federation because of paranoia over the changeling threat. He recruited an elite unit of Starfleet Academy cadets to sabatoge Earth's power grid as a pretext to martial law, blaming it on changeling infiltrators obviously. Fortunately Sisko and crew foiled the plot.

	11-01-2003 01:26									#11
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quote: There is a lot about Star Trek that makes no sense if one assumes that there is no money. Why, for example, are people working to provide services for others?

The idea is that since they seem to be able to replicate what they want, when they want and have limitless amounts of energy, everyone is so rich they can do what they want.
People work because they want to - everyone needs to spend their life doing something, and a lot of them choose to join Starfleet or whatever.

My question is why don't the crew of TNG ever die of dehydration or starvation? Everytime the poor bastards go into 10-forward (I think its called that) for a drink of bite to eat there's an emergency and they have to leave their drink/meal.

	11-01-2003 01:35									#12
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LOL, that is a very good point Graag.

Of course, if we had effectively finite resources, the whole need for economics ceases to exist. Think - no more Roland Stenish threads

	11-01-2003 02:11									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith Economics is about making choices subject to resource constraints. If one resource, energy, is effectively limitless, and can be freely transformed into all other resources, then there is no resource constraint, and no need for economics. But can replicators be used to create, say, a limitless supply of each person's time? If not, scarcity still exists and economics still has something to say.

What would be the economics of time, exactly?

And what about ideas: the whole idiotic "latinum" disucssion birngs up one point: you probably need formulas for anything you whish to replicate, so where would these formulas come from? You could argue that if someone comes up witha design for some new tool, they would own the patent, and be able to charge individuals for using their idea. Yet what about, lets say, and apple? Could anyone own the pattern for an apple, or any sort of common plant?

And then there is the idea of services: you still need engineers, and repair personal for this equipment, teahcers, and doctors (probably even lawyers). Could these serives be provided all by an overarching state?Or would private companies still exist? and then thre is the question of who builds and controls the power output, the lifeline of this whole system.

	11-01-2003 02:18									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith Economics is about making choices subject to resource constraints. If one resource, energy, is effectively limitless, and can be freely transformed into all other resources, then there is no resource constraint, and no need for economics. But can replicators be used to create, say, a limitless supply of each person's time? If not, scarcity still exists and economics still has something to say.

If technology of the same time allows clinical immortality and advanced medicine techniques to combat just about all ailments, then yes...people could have lots of time too. The issue is, humans would have to find something to do with all the time...

	11-01-2003 02:23									#15
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quote: Originally posted by GePap What would be the economics of time, exactly?

Probably what you said yourself; services. Services take a lot of time.

	11-01-2003 02:25									#16
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As a side note this was not exacly the kind of thread one would suspect from you. Nice to see that there's stil room for suprises in this dismal world of ours to spice things up.

	11-01-2003 02:28									#17
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quote: As a side note this was not exacly the kind of thread one would suspect from you. Nice to see that there's stil room for suprises in this dismal world of ours to spice things up.

From me? what?

I start a very ecclectic number of threads: look up those thread I have begun, and you will see they are all over the board. I think it is an interesting theoreticl question, what the economics of plenty would look like.

And as of yet, no inkilngs of theoretical models proposed.

	11-01-2003 02:32									#18
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quote: Originally posted by GePap What would be the economics of time, exactly?

How to allocate scarce time among various activities to best achieve what you want. Eg., work for current income, or go to school for future income. Alternatively, consider that the price that you pay for a good is not just the monetary price of the good, but also the value of the time it takes to buy it. For example, I often buy things quickly over the internet, rather than taking a long trip to the mall. Gary Becker (University of Chicago) won a Nobel prize in part for working out the implications of time in economics. (edit: Thorstein Veblin, The Harried Leisure Class first raised the issue in 1919 or so.)

As for the other issues you raise, I have no idea.

edit: spelling

	11-01-2003 02:44									#19
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I never met Becker..but many of his students did not sound very impressed.. anyway.

Look at the examples given: due to the replicator, the time I use to get any good, is the time the replicator takes (perhaps things are instantly made), so that much of these questiosn of time no longer exist (and with transpoters, movement is perhaps just as easy).

Now, would we still have to pay for the goods? Pay for the formulas to replicate somehting? Could I 'buy' and apple formula once, for ever, and then be able to make apples all the time? Or would I have to buy the formula for the apple every time (imagine the replicator is connected to some far away storage of info so that I have no local memory for the dtat but must get it from this central warehouse) Could not this plenty lead to an even biggers divide of the haves and have nots? I mean, why assume that everyone coul;d afford a house replicator, and those that have one would have significant advantages of life over those that didn't.

Does no one want to hypothesize?

	11-01-2003 02:48									#20
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Could I 'buy' and apple formula once, for ever, and then be able to make apples all the time?

Just get the formulae from P2P networks.

	11-01-2003 02:58									#21
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quote: For example, I often buy things quickly over the internet, rather than taking a long trip to the mall.

Well remember, when you go to the mall, you get the good right away, as opposed to waiting for delievery, so I'd say the oppertunity costs are about the same.

	11-01-2003 03:27									#22
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Marx is studied today not because he is a theoretic of communism, but because he is a theoretic of capitalism. His actual study was of capitalism, while communism remained solely in the realm of possibility for him. Our knowledge of communism is inadequate, that's why we try to learn by trial and error.

As for Star Trek, I do not watch it, but isn't it reasonable that fancy equipment like replicators are only available in spaceships and are not for general use?

	11-01-2003 03:28									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: For example, I often buy things quickly over the internet, rather than taking a long trip to the mall. Well remember, when you go to the mall, you get the good right away, as opposed to waiting for delievery, so I'd say the oppertunity costs are about the same.

And then there's the cost of shipping, which probably is greater than the monetary costs of traveling to the mall. However, Adam Smith's decision to shop online depends also on his preferences. I'm guessing he prefers the peace and quiet of online shopping verses crowded shopping malls and waiting in long lines.

	11-01-2003 03:30									#24
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Which is why I said oppertunity costs are about equal .

	11-01-2003 03:41									#25
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The problem with selling food patterns is that you would probably end up with some Napster/Kazaa type food piracy community, like Foodster or something. I think that such patterns would inevitably leak and people would be able to eat whatever they want.

In fact, that's probably why restaurants like that of Sisko's father are still successful in the Star Trek world: food prepared and cooked by hand cannot be replicated, so truly unique dishes could only be experienced at restaurants. Perhaps most staple foods would become available by replicator, while delicacies or variations on the basic foods would be only available by restaurants with monopolized or secret recipies.

	11-01-2003 03:53									#26
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It has been mentioned before in the series that replicated food tastes distinctly inferior to real food. If that is the case, one may assume that a similar dicotomy exists between other products and their replicated counterparts. So there is probably at least a small economic system for 'hand-made' luxeries.

	11-01-2003 05:41									#27
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One starts to wonder if those large spaceships they fly around in are made by replicators to...

	11-01-2003 06:52									#28
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Marxism continually tends to throw up interesting theorists from its limited economistic base for some reason (who are then immediately branded iconiclasts by the trots, of course ) I mean, look at someone as incredibly fundamental to modern thought as Gramsci.

	11-01-2003 13:16									#29
	Re: Marx and Star Trek Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by GePap How could the Ferengi continue to use species (Latinum) as currency? Why has no unscrupolous (ie. any) Ferengi simply replicated tons of the stuff, thus making it worthless?

Someone mentioned the time factor as on inhibiting force on inflation. However I think there is also the space factor. If we say that ferengi currency is indeed capable of replication, then it would only achieve a state of worthlessness if the currency area was limited on the horizontal plane (in this case the area is perhaps spherical) by borders, and vertically by the number of consumers. Since space is practically limitless in area ,and presumably inhabitants, the socalled optimum currency area would never be reached. Socalled 'globalization' would not set in.
In fact the motivating factor behind their 'greed' is that they do indeed replicate tons and tons of currency triggering inflation. The resultant internal distabilisation as prices soar, is offset by expanding their monetary bloc continuously which in turn deflates the currency.
Also as each world sees prices go up they naturally also raise taxes, pulling the currency out of circulation - these are then put into vaults for 'safekeeping'. The various planetary govenors might full well know what is going on, but they might consider playing along if their miltary hardware is not sufficient to facilitate aggression against the ferengi.

An historical analogy is of course the rise of Athens. Using slave labor to work the mines of Laurion they were able to import grain in exchange for silver. Their monetary bloc expanded to encompass the western Mediterrenian basin until when from around 550 to 500 the rise of the Persian empire meant that future monetary expansion would have to penetrate that entity. The Persian empire began to take silver out of ciculation in the form of tribute which was dug down in the Palace at Persepolis. But to no avail since the Babylonian economy was insatiable and athhenian coin was in much demand So war erupted...

When Alexander the Great later razed Persepolis and handed out the hoard of silver there it immediately triggered hyperinflation.

Remember Oresme's Law 'bad money drives out good'.

	12-01-2003 06:09									#30
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quote: Originally posted by axi As for Star Trek, I do not watch it, but isn't it reasonable that fancy equipment like replicators are only available in spaceships and are not for general use?

YES. In fact, ON at least one occasion, Picard's Brother's family is noted to "Not have a replicator". There are still restraunts and stuff on Earth.

The Federation is a Communist society, or at least very close to one. Everyone is "Equal" but some are more equal than others.

As for it being a Democracy....well, in the DS9 episode with the Coup everyone is talking about, the Coup Plotters manage to order all media outlets closed. That is not indicative of a free society.