11-01-2003 00:56									#1
	Final Poll On Tech Trade Increase Your PM Length

Read the other poll's thread for pros and cons, plus the war thread, plus the FA thread. Then vote. This one is final. GS is getting impatient.

	11-01-2003 01:18									#2
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yes

because by the time we learn ironworking, connect iron, and get a few immortals, they will be massproducing bronzemen like mad

spearemen take less time than a immortal, and if we don't trade, they will think there is soemthing up, so they will rush for bronzeworking faster and make mroe spearemen than if we don't trade it

Jon Miller

	11-01-2003 03:23									#3
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Hmmm - there is good logic to that jon. If we do the trade - and promise to do the second part - we put them on a research course of the alphabet. Which gives us time to build the place up a bit, and get immortals together. We will be facing spearmen anyways as you have stated - and you are right - this will look like we want peace in the long term, so they may restrict building a lot of spearmen. And we get another tech to trade.

It is that versus forcing them to research it. I suspect they are researching faster than us - and it is only a 30 beeker (and probably less now) tech - that is half of iron working. And then where will we be militarily at the end of that - we will not have had time to build up sufficient numbers of Immortals to rush them. And they could still have hordes of chariots.

Man - this is a tough call - but I vote yes as well. You have convinced me - great fearless leader.

	11-01-2003 04:03									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

if only the person who voted no would have posted

Jon Miller

	11-01-2003 04:14									#5
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Eli? Man of few words.

I presume. His position has been fairly clear from the start.

I wish you would say more Eli - this is a tough call - I've changed my mind several times already. I have asked my wife. She looked at me weird. I have asked the two cats. One voted yes. The other no. Not much help either.

If it wasn't you, I take it all back, except the parts about me, my wife, and the cats, which is most of it.

New rule - since we are a small team - if you vote - please post that you have so we know who is left to vote.

	11-01-2003 05:09									#6
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I voted yes.

	11-01-2003 05:23									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

That's 3 out of 5, and I believe Diss will vote yes from everything he has posted. That would be 4 out of 5.

Young skywalker has not been present much, and has not participated in recent polls, so I say 3 out of 5 carries the day.

Hate to rush - but if we do feel that yes is the right vote, letting it go to long (and another GS turn has already slipped by) may result in them deciding for us. Which given how tough this one was anyways, might be the best approach.

Just kidding.

Time for a rum and coke and a pen - er - keyboard.

	11-01-2003 06:20									#8
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Thought I would post this letter here - as it is in direct response to this poll. This is the proposed response to GS. Please comments asap. Thanks ... Beta

Nathan Barclay of Gathering Storm,

Greetings my dear sir. My humble apologies for not getting back to you sooner. I acknowledge the pressures that have been placed on you and your leaders by our deliberations.

After considerable discussion - and I think you fully understand and appreciate the magnitude of these early decisions - I am pleased to inform you that I have been directed by the Controller to advise Gathering Storm that the two-tiered technology trade, as previously outlined, is acceptable to Vox Controli.

To this end, we would, at the earliest possible moment, trade bronze working for the wheel. At a prescribed future date, we will trade iron working for alphabet. We acknowldge the need for the two-tiered trade to create equity in the overall beeker costs of the trades involved.

We do have one concern. In the first instance, we are trading a 'military' technology for another military technology, which in our opinion, is of lesser significance, to us, Vox Controli, of Persian lineage. In the second instance we are trading an even more powerful military technology for a peaceful technology. This way of looking at the two-tiered trade was the major stumbling block to its early approval here at home. We, of Vox Controli, are all certain of our own peaceful intentions. However, some of our senators are not so sure of yours. And this trade was seen by some as a major step in strengthening your military position.

We therefore ask that this deal be taken in conjunction with the earlier proposals on peaceful co-existance on the continent, as outlined in my previous letter. One is dependent on the other.

We would also appreciate a "statement of peaceful intent" from Gathering Storm, given that we have stated our such intent several times now.

We also see the need to get past this early stumbling block our relationship has encountered. If we can work towards mutual trust and co-dependence, I feel that together, we will be better prepared to face the rset of the world. Gathering Storm had raised this point in an earlier correspondence. The position has merits, and I can see us both working towards such a goal.

In conclusion, we do trust that we can do business as described above. I look forward to hearing from you, not only in regards to the technology trade, but with respect to the territorial matters discussed earlier. I offer my sincerest regards to you and the leaders of Gathering Storm.

Yours truly,

BetaHound
Voice of Foreign Affairs
Vox Controli

	11-01-2003 07:21									#9
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hmm, talk about a two teired trade, but say that in the interest of fairness, we would want to trade military tech fro military tech

we can have another round of delibreations before agreeing to do alphabet and ironworking (basically I want to delay more)

but yes, say that this trade and go ahead

Jon Miller

	11-01-2003 07:23									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I have noticed Skywalker has not been contributing much

I may ban him if he does not find a place soon (so if you read this Skywalker, take it as a warning to start contributing, if it requires too much orf your time, than I am sorry)

Jon Miller

	11-01-2003 07:50									#11
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I think that Beta's letter is well put....but I do agree with Jon on the Mil-for-Mil trade, but given the current situation we may have to let this one pass....of course, Jon is right, when it comes time for Alphabet for Iron Working, we can always drag it out.

Edit: Typo - Thanks Beta

Last edited by Wittlich on 11-01-2003 at 21:46

	11-01-2003 08:51									#12
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Witt - I think you meant Beta's letter. And from both your post and jon's, it looks like everyone is having an entertaining Friday evening. I am. Bottle of wine is almost done, and letter to GS is sent. No more pros and cons, deliberations, or polls. It is done. Fini. (as per the other official language up here).

Gawd - I thought that debate was going to kill me/us. Well, let's see what comes of it.

A demain, mes amis!

(and yes - jon - I concur about monsieur skywalker. I am surprised that the rest of you haven't gotten suspicious by now. )

Time for bed .... bon soir!!!!

	11-01-2003 11:59									#13
	Remove this text

go ahead and PM or e-mail skywalker and se what is up. He may be out of town or something.

And yes giving them Iron working is not my desire. That would give them better defense (by defense I mean offense ) to our immortals. But we will see what happens when the time comes.

	11-01-2003 14:06									#14
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Try generating maps in the editor and see how often Iron appears. You'll see it's not often enough for us to be certain that we have it. I would'nt even give a 50% chance.

A question. How far do we plan to expand in the immediate future? Are the two mountain ridges in Southern Estonia will be settled before our possible war? What if GS claims that territory as theirs?
If those two ridges are ours, then the chances to have Iron rise significantly.

	11-01-2003 19:20									#15
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

It may be a bit of a rush to get there - and they are closer - but I agree, Eli - it would be good to get a city into the mountains. The big advantage is that we will actually 'see' the iron well before GS. This should buy us time to scramble for it if need be.

	11-01-2003 19:26									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

In any case, I think we should at least think of general strategies for the case we'll have to spend the next 5000 years only in Northern Estonia.

	11-01-2003 21:24									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

eeek - what a thought! I would rather go out in a blaze of glory. One huge (well, as large as we can make it) rush on GS.

But along the lines you were suggesting, it would be nice to get to mapmaking asap and see if there are any large islands around for settlement. But we are still short all 4 techs required.

	11-01-2003 21:55									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: I would rather go out in a blaze of glory.

Wouldnt it be funner to survive until the modern age and then, out of the blue, launch 10 nuclear missiles on their biggest cities?

	11-01-2003 22:05									#19
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About the contributing thing, read the other thread.

*sigh*

manually add +1 to YES

	11-01-2003 22:07									#20
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Also, we should attack them sometime before late middle age, at least. We want to cut them down a bit. Make them subservient . Then we can take them over late game.